Kris question to the knowledgeables

Sang Keris · 16th January 2006, 01:21 PM

Pusaka ( D C ) , i really don't care about the discussion , but please DO NOT use my keris picture for model without permission ...!

Spunjer · 16th January 2006, 01:31 PM

thanks for the link, mabagani!

Pusaka · 16th January 2006, 01:35 PM

Sorry Sang (W H) I did not think you would mind since you post them on ebay often, but sorry I should have asked you first. You know I sent you an email but you did not respond.

Mans · 16th January 2006, 01:42 PM

Hi Dear all,

Indeed that the origin of the keris has been debate for a long time by many people. They believed that the keris came from along time ago and they didn’t want to prove it. They just believed that as a culture.

In the world of the Jawanese keris, old keris from Budha era is very simple. It has no Kembang Kacang, Greneng or Ron Dha. Usually just Sogokan and Kruwingan. Then, on Kediri and Singosari period (11th-13th century), the keris made with more detail. Some ricikans as the features of the keris to be made. The religion of Singosari and Kediri people are Hindu and Budha. On the Majapahit till Mataram period (13th-19th century), the keris made with more complete. After Majapahit period, the Islamic culture has beginning.

So, we knew that the keris came without Kembang Kacang and Ron Dha, just simple shape, but in the other side, some keris has it with more detail ricikans like Ron Dha, Greneng, Sogokan, Blumbungan, Kembang Kacang, ect.. .. which has many senses, reasons, and can be interpretated as anything from each histories or backgrounds. Also the keris influenced by many religions and cultures on the way of the keris it self.

So, why we just talking about the Ron Dha and didn’t give argumentations about the other ricikans ? If we want to debate just about the ricikans, we must talking about the another ricikans too as the overwhole aspects on the keris it self. Then, how if we talk about the Sogokan or Blumbungan ? Where it came from ? Or which the religions has influenced this ricikans ? So, if the RonDha and Kembang Kacang or Greneng just stand alone, it can’t be used to represent where the keris from or the period of the keris, also which the religious or culture which influenced the keris.

Pusaka posted the pictures from New Balinese Keris which made with complete ricikans. I think it can’t be used to represent the old keris. And now, I posted the keris from Old period (before 10th century) till Mataram period (about 18th century). I hope useful to continuing this discussion.

Regards,

Mans.

Note :
Pusaka, you said that the pictures (the Balinese keris) which you used on this thread is for eBay ((For example look at this Gajah from an ebay keris a while back. I think its a good example)) . I didn’t think so, because this keris has never listed in eBay. I knew the man who has this keris. He said that he send you the pictures via P.M. Did you has permission from him before ? Sorry, just to clarification your wrote.

Ups, Sang Keris has told it

Pusaka · 16th January 2006, 02:01 PM

Nice photos Mans but because the markings are so worn its quite difficult to know what the markings on some of them would have looked like originally.

I would be more then happy to hear other peoples theory’s about the meaning of the marks. If you do think it just represents a letter then explain its meaning.

VANDOO · 16th January 2006, 04:04 PM

AS WITH ALL DISCUSSIONS PERTAINING TO THE KERIS/KRIS THERE IS MUCH CONTROVERSY AND IT IS NOT POSSIBLE TO JUST FOCUS ON ONE ASPECT IN ITS EVOLUTION. THE KERIS CONTINUES TO EVOLVE TODAY BUT I THINK THE MORE RECENT CHANGES HAVE LESS TO DO WITH SPIRITUAL AND MAGICAL MATTERS AS THEY DID IN OLD TIMES. I WOULD THERORIZE THAT THE FIRST BIG CHANGE IN THE EVOLUTION OF THE KERIS WAS THE SEPARATION OF THE GANJA FROM THE BLADE AS IT IS VERY LIKELY THAT THE FIRST KERIS HAD ONLY A FAIRLY SIMPLE ONE PIECE BLADE. THIS PROBABLY CAME ABOUT DUE TO SOME SPIRITUAL OR MAGICAL BELIEF, I COULD MAKE MANY GUESSES AS TO WHY THIS WAS DONE, BUT AS THEY COULD NEVER BE PROVEN AND WOULD ONLY MUDDY THE WATER I WILL REFRAIN.

THE LATER MODIFICATIONS TO THE BLADE COULD HAVE BEEN DONE FOR MANY REASONS, 1. TO INDICATE THE TRIBE OR EMPIRE. 2. TAILSMANIC PROTECTION 3. TO SHOW REVERENCE TO A CERTIAN DIETY AND GAIN THEIR PROTECTION AND POWER. THERE ARE MANY POSSIBILITYS, BUT I DON'T THINK IT WAS DONE JUST FOR DECORATION OR TO ADD TO THE EFFECTIVE FIGHTING QUALITYS OF THE KERIS.

QUESTIONS

WHERE IS THE POWER OF THE KERIS SAID TO RESIDE IN THE BLADE OR THE GANJA?
IF THE POWER IS IN THE BLADE WOULD THE GANJA BE THERE TO PROTECT THE WIELDER FROM THAT POWER OR TO CONTROL IT. ?

SO MANY QUESTIONS AND SO LITTLE OLD DOCUMENTED INFORMATION!

Mans · 16th January 2006, 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pusaka

Nice photos Mans but because the markings are so worn its quite difficult to know what the markings on some of them would have looked like originally.

I would be more then happy to hear other peoples theory’s about the meaning of the marks. If you do think it just represents a letter then explain its meaning.

Thanks Pusaka,
I think some forumities has told about the meaning of the marks on the keris.
In here, I just want to give the example of the keris from the old and distinguishing with the keris from next period. Why the old keris made with no ricikans as the keris from next generations

Just the simple shape. Perhaps because on old period, their appreciation about the art or philosophy just like that

Thats because perhaps, they just want the Tuah or something else in the Anmism and Dynamism faith.

So, if we want to know from where the keris, when it made, or which the culture or religions has influenced, we must know about the keris as overwhole aspects (Jawa = Pasikutan). Specifically on the iron, pamor and technique of forging. Not just the Dha which you try to analyzed. Its just the one aspect.

We can to keep changing some symbols or numeral to get the matching with the Ricikan on the keris. But how with another ricikans which has no compatible with any symbols like Ada-Ada or Kruwingan or Sogokan

So, I didn't think so that your theory about the Dha and Greneng can be used to give the reason that the keris came from India, Indonesia or somewhere else. Many region has self histories. So that why if we want to learn the keris, we must put it on the clear locus and focus.

For another example : http://www.diskusi.fotopic.net/c534452.html
The two keris at there came from Singosari (small) and Bangkinang (Riau / Sumatera). Its has different lenght, the iron forge ect, but also has similarities. So, can we analyzed that just from Ricikans ? I didn't think so. We can analyze more clear if we know about the journey of Singosari people to Sumatera and the other hand at past.

So, go back to Antonio questions, perhaps any forumities known the journey of Moro or Moslem people at there, where and where

Did they has connections with India or Indonesia or etc

Also we can connecting the story by period.

I just know (in the Jawanese history) that Sriwijaya Kingdom at Palembang and Majapahit Kingdom at East Jawa has the region till Moro about 9th century and 14th century. So, can we said that the Sriwijaya and Majapahit influencing the Moro Keris ? Then cultures of the Moro people continuing their appreciations about the art of the keris till now (free from religion values)

MABAGANI · 16th January 2006, 06:11 PM

As mentioned, from the proto keris, forms branch off depending on the timeline and region, so it would be interesting to see a family tree with the various keris and kris to get a clearer understanding when symbols and types took place. In regards to the Moro kris, evidence from artifacts and written materials reveal ties to Indian culture and parallel interconnection to Indonesian kingdoms. Its also important to take in account cultural relationships to China throughout Moro history. In the early 15th century Sulu "kings" were recognized by Chinese royals when an entourage paid a visit to the mainland. Of interest, there is a village in China that trace their heritage to the early kings, one of the kings died on the voyage, some of the relatives stayed behind and the following generations to this day still take care of the tomb of their ancestor. The conversion to Islam in Mindanao and Sulu as well as the parts of the Visayas and Luzon began in the mid 15th and 16th centuries. From the early proto keris two distinct forms develop into what we call here the kris and the barung swords in the Moro regions.
http://www.geocities.com/sinupan/batara.htm
http://www.china-sd.net/eng/sdtravel/scenery/26.asp
http://www.bangsamoro.info/uploads/photos/26.jpg

BSMStar · 16th January 2006, 07:41 PM

Ok Pusaka.... you have sold me, that at the very least... you theory is worthy of further research. After all gentlemen, it is a theory and as a theory, worthy of testing.

Finding the earliest example of this style Greneng will give you an approximate "date" or date of influence. While not an absolute "test," it may give a clue if it occurred before of after the Hindu influence.

It may be a starting point.

16th January 2006, 01:42 PM	#4
Mans Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: East Java Posts: 137	Hi Dear all, Indeed that the origin of the keris has been debate for a long time by many people. They believed that the keris came from along time ago and they didn’t want to prove it. They just believed that as a culture. In the world of the Jawanese keris, old keris from Budha era is very simple. It has no Kembang Kacang, Greneng or Ron Dha. Usually just Sogokan and Kruwingan. Then, on Kediri and Singosari period (11th-13th century), the keris made with more detail. Some ricikans as the features of the keris to be made. The religion of Singosari and Kediri people are Hindu and Budha. On the Majapahit till Mataram period (13th-19th century), the keris made with more complete. After Majapahit period, the Islamic culture has beginning. So, we knew that the keris came without Kembang Kacang and Ron Dha, just simple shape, but in the other side, some keris has it with more detail ricikans like Ron Dha, Greneng, Sogokan, Blumbungan, Kembang Kacang, ect.. .. which has many senses, reasons, and can be interpretated as anything from each histories or backgrounds. Also the keris influenced by many religions and cultures on the way of the keris it self. So, why we just talking about the Ron Dha and didn’t give argumentations about the other ricikans ? If we want to debate just about the ricikans, we must talking about the another ricikans too as the overwhole aspects on the keris it self. Then, how if we talk about the Sogokan or Blumbungan ? Where it came from ? Or which the religions has influenced this ricikans ? So, if the RonDha and Kembang Kacang or Greneng just stand alone, it can’t be used to represent where the keris from or the period of the keris, also which the religious or culture which influenced the keris. Pusaka posted the pictures from New Balinese Keris which made with complete ricikans. I think it can’t be used to represent the old keris. And now, I posted the keris from Old period (before 10th century) till Mataram period (about 18th century). I hope useful to continuing this discussion. Regards, Mans. Note : Pusaka, you said that the pictures (the Balinese keris) which you used on this thread is for eBay ((For example look at this Gajah from an ebay keris a while back. I think its a good example)) . I didn’t think so, because this keris has never listed in eBay. I knew the man who has this keris. He said that he send you the pictures via P.M. Did you has permission from him before ? Sorry, just to clarification your wrote. Ups, Sang Keris has told it Attached Images

16th January 2006, 06:11 PM	#8
MABAGANI Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 221	As mentioned, from the proto keris, forms branch off depending on the timeline and region, so it would be interesting to see a family tree with the various keris and kris to get a clearer understanding when symbols and types took place. In regards to the Moro kris, evidence from artifacts and written materials reveal ties to Indian culture and parallel interconnection to Indonesian kingdoms. Its also important to take in account cultural relationships to China throughout Moro history. In the early 15th century Sulu "kings" were recognized by Chinese royals when an entourage paid a visit to the mainland. Of interest, there is a village in China that trace their heritage to the early kings, one of the kings died on the voyage, some of the relatives stayed behind and the following generations to this day still take care of the tomb of their ancestor. The conversion to Islam in Mindanao and Sulu as well as the parts of the Visayas and Luzon began in the mid 15th and 16th centuries. From the early proto keris two distinct forms develop into what we call here the kris and the barung swords in the Moro regions. http://www.geocities.com/sinupan/batara.htm http://www.china-sd.net/eng/sdtravel/scenery/26.asp http://www.bangsamoro.info/uploads/photos/26.jpg Last edited by MABAGANI; 17th January 2006 at 06:21 AM. Reason: sites added

16th January 2006, 07:41 PM	#9
BSMStar Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kansas City, MO USA Posts: 312	Worthy of research Ok Pusaka.... you have sold me, that at the very least... you theory is worthy of further research. After all gentlemen, it is a theory and as a theory, worthy of testing. Finding the earliest example of this style Greneng will give you an approximate "date" or date of influence. While not an absolute "test," it may give a clue if it occurred before of after the Hindu influence. It may be a starting point.

16th January 2006, 01:21 PM	#1
Sang Keris Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Indonesia Posts: 46	Pusaka ( D C ) , i really don't care about the discussion , but please DO NOT use my keris picture for model without permission ...!

16th January 2006, 01:31 PM	#2
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	thanks for the link, mabagani!

16th January 2006, 01:35 PM	#3
Pusaka Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 341	Sorry Sang (W H) I did not think you would mind since you post them on ebay often, but sorry I should have asked you first. You know I sent you an email but you did not respond.

16th January 2006, 02:01 PM	#5
Pusaka Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 341	Nice photos Mans but because the markings are so worn its quite difficult to know what the markings on some of them would have looked like originally. I would be more then happy to hear other peoples theory’s about the meaning of the marks. If you do think it just represents a letter then explain its meaning.

16th January 2006, 04:04 PM	#6
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	AS WITH ALL DISCUSSIONS PERTAINING TO THE KERIS/KRIS THERE IS MUCH CONTROVERSY AND IT IS NOT POSSIBLE TO JUST FOCUS ON ONE ASPECT IN ITS EVOLUTION. THE KERIS CONTINUES TO EVOLVE TODAY BUT I THINK THE MORE RECENT CHANGES HAVE LESS TO DO WITH SPIRITUAL AND MAGICAL MATTERS AS THEY DID IN OLD TIMES. I WOULD THERORIZE THAT THE FIRST BIG CHANGE IN THE EVOLUTION OF THE KERIS WAS THE SEPARATION OF THE GANJA FROM THE BLADE AS IT IS VERY LIKELY THAT THE FIRST KERIS HAD ONLY A FAIRLY SIMPLE ONE PIECE BLADE. THIS PROBABLY CAME ABOUT DUE TO SOME SPIRITUAL OR MAGICAL BELIEF, I COULD MAKE MANY GUESSES AS TO WHY THIS WAS DONE, BUT AS THEY COULD NEVER BE PROVEN AND WOULD ONLY MUDDY THE WATER I WILL REFRAIN. THE LATER MODIFICATIONS TO THE BLADE COULD HAVE BEEN DONE FOR MANY REASONS, 1. TO INDICATE THE TRIBE OR EMPIRE. 2. TAILSMANIC PROTECTION 3. TO SHOW REVERENCE TO A CERTIAN DIETY AND GAIN THEIR PROTECTION AND POWER. THERE ARE MANY POSSIBILITYS, BUT I DON'T THINK IT WAS DONE JUST FOR DECORATION OR TO ADD TO THE EFFECTIVE FIGHTING QUALITYS OF THE KERIS. QUESTIONS WHERE IS THE POWER OF THE KERIS SAID TO RESIDE IN THE BLADE OR THE GANJA? IF THE POWER IS IN THE BLADE WOULD THE GANJA BE THERE TO PROTECT THE WIELDER FROM THAT POWER OR TO CONTROL IT. ? SO MANY QUESTIONS AND SO LITTLE OLD DOCUMENTED INFORMATION!