European blades in India

ariel · 10th January 2016, 05:06 PM

Jim,
Not to forget that Henry Lawrence was born in Ceylon, spent virtually all his life in India ( with the exception of a short stint in England) and even died at the siege of Lucknow.

His allegiance was impeccably British, but a sentiment toward all things Indian was very strong.

Jim McDougall · 10th January 2016, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Jim,
Not to forget that Henry Lawrence was born in Ceylon, spent virtually all his life in India ( with the exception of a short stint in England) and even died at the siege of Lucknow.

His allegiance was impeccably British, but a sentiment toward all things Indian was very strong.

Good point! Still interesting that he used a British hilt when officers had a choice. In some cases I have seen British blades with Hindu basket hilts
It is hard to use these personal preferences to support broader sentiments, but as always, most interesting.

Mercenary · 10th January 2016, 05:38 PM

Dear Jim

Many thanks for so many information and your opinion.
But there is a bit difference between "using" European blades and "preference" ones.
My car is "Honda" but I prefer "Bentley". The fact that I am using "Honda" can tell us about what? I have not enough money, and only ))))))

Jim McDougall · 10th January 2016, 05:53 PM

Well made point Mercenary, and very good analogy.
I'd like to have a Ferrari but I drive an older jeep

As you say, the Indians certainly used European blades significantly, but probably did so out of convenience in most cases. I most cases trade blades were conveniently available but probably they preferred their own blades as a rule as they knew well what quality they put into them. It still does seem interesting that they used European markings to their own blades though.
Why, if they had such high regard for their own blades, would they add spurious European marks and inscriptions to imply 'quality' ?

Mercenary · 10th January 2016, 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Why, if they had such high regard for their own blades, would they add spurious European marks and inscriptions to imply 'quality' ?

My "Honda" again - cheap but reliable.
It is not the watered blade. But not the "village" one. It is a normal quality and inexpensive European blade (counterfeit of cause).

Pukka Bundook · 10th January 2016, 07:52 PM

While I can't add anything off the top of my head about Indian Preferring foreign blades, I can say from a little experience that some of the lower quality (but old) Native blades are a bit shaky in quality, with the 'hot shuts' and the forging flaws and such, and I think I would like at least three at my disposal if going in to battle.

If I had time to re-read "Sahib", I am sure I would find reference to some Indian units preferring English blades.
It is hazy, but believe that they liked very much the Mole (British) blades, but re-hilted them in their native fashion, even though Mole supplied them with a 'tulwar' type hilt.

Please do not quote me on this, I will try and find it.

If we take the Pata sword, they are very often fitted with European blades.
This, as Jim has mentioned, does not mean they Did prefer such blades, but the evidence is powerful that such was the case, and for two reasons;
1,
These weapons are very often of high quality, so a Good blade would be chosen, Price would not dictate an inferior blade in such cases,
and 2,
The Pata was issued to the most skillful swordsmen, most highly trained.
One would not imagine training men to such high standards then giving them poor quality arms with which to go into battle, Especially as the rulers body-guard often carried these!
"Cheaping out" on bodyguard equipment never seems to have caught on, for some reason!

Jim, if involved in a thread, I always read all the posts, inc yours!!! :-)

Best ,

Richard.

Jens Nordlunde · 10th January 2016, 09:18 PM

Thinking about it, is it not so, that when we look in the back mirror, we remember the European writings that the Indians wanted/prefered the European blades, and not the Indian writings about these blades?
European blades were at a time no doubt in fashion, so everyone would like to have a blade with an European inscription - fake or not. But this does not mean that the Indians did not/could not make high quality blades.

Roland_M · 12th January 2016, 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Why, if they had such high regard for their own blades, would they add spurious European marks and inscriptions to imply 'quality' ?

A good question and i think, that an european blade has an exotic flair for an Indian warrior.
What i can say from my own collection is, that a well made pattern welded Indian sword easily reaches european quality in toughness and flexibility but with a higher sharpness.
Many of the famous Indian wootz-blades (woodgrain wootz) are trash from the technical point of view compared to european blades or well made Indian pattern welded steel.

Roland

Jens Nordlunde · 12th January 2016, 06:15 PM

I find that Roland comes with an interesting view on the subject.
The excotic interest for foreign blades.
The foreign armies did win a lot of battles in India, so their blades must have been better.
Only later the Indians found out, that it was not only the blades - but the battle decipline/orginasitation that mattered.

Mercenary · 12th January 2016, 06:50 PM

If not good with the references, let's get statistically. How many Indian sabres and swords with European blades do we know? I think 20-30 percent of the total. And what the Indians preferred?

10th January 2016, 05:06 PM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Jim, Not to forget that Henry Lawrence was born in Ceylon, spent virtually all his life in India ( with the exception of a short stint in England) and even died at the siege of Lucknow. His allegiance was impeccably British, but a sentiment toward all things Indian was very strong.

10th January 2016, 05:38 PM	#3
Mercenary Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Moscow, Russia Posts: 426	Dear Jim Many thanks for so many information and your opinion. But there is a bit difference between "using" European blades and "preference" ones. My car is "Honda" but I prefer "Bentley". The fact that I am using "Honda" can tell us about what? I have not enough money, and only ))))))

10th January 2016, 05:53 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,193	Well made point Mercenary, and very good analogy. I'd like to have a Ferrari but I drive an older jeep As you say, the Indians certainly used European blades significantly, but probably did so out of convenience in most cases. I most cases trade blades were conveniently available but probably they preferred their own blades as a rule as they knew well what quality they put into them. It still does seem interesting that they used European markings to their own blades though. Why, if they had such high regard for their own blades, would they add spurious European marks and inscriptions to imply 'quality' ?

10th January 2016, 07:52 PM	#6
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	While I can't add anything off the top of my head about Indian Preferring foreign blades, I can say from a little experience that some of the lower quality (but old) Native blades are a bit shaky in quality, with the 'hot shuts' and the forging flaws and such, and I think I would like at least three at my disposal if going in to battle. If I had time to re-read "Sahib", I am sure I would find reference to some Indian units preferring English blades. It is hazy, but believe that they liked very much the Mole (British) blades, but re-hilted them in their native fashion, even though Mole supplied them with a 'tulwar' type hilt. Please do not quote me on this, I will try and find it. If we take the Pata sword, they are very often fitted with European blades. This, as Jim has mentioned, does not mean they Did prefer such blades, but the evidence is powerful that such was the case, and for two reasons; 1, These weapons are very often of high quality, so a Good blade would be chosen, Price would not dictate an inferior blade in such cases, and 2, The Pata was issued to the most skillful swordsmen, most highly trained. One would not imagine training men to such high standards then giving them poor quality arms with which to go into battle, Especially as the rulers body-guard often carried these! "Cheaping out" on bodyguard equipment never seems to have caught on, for some reason! Jim, if involved in a thread, I always read all the posts, inc yours!!! :-) Best , Richard.

10th January 2016, 09:18 PM	#7
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Thinking about it, is it not so, that when we look in the back mirror, we remember the European writings that the Indians wanted/prefered the European blades, and not the Indian writings about these blades? European blades were at a time no doubt in fashion, so everyone would like to have a blade with an European inscription - fake or not. But this does not mean that the Indians did not/could not make high quality blades.

12th January 2016, 06:15 PM	#9
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	I find that Roland comes with an interesting view on the subject. The excotic interest for foreign blades. The foreign armies did win a lot of battles in India, so their blades must have been better. Only later the Indians found out, that it was not only the blades - but the battle decipline/orginasitation that mattered.

12th January 2016, 06:50 PM	#10
Mercenary Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Moscow, Russia Posts: 426	If not good with the references, let's get statistically. How many Indian sabres and swords with European blades do we know? I think 20-30 percent of the total. And what the Indians preferred?