European blades in India

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams Mercenary.. Nice example ...This is a Portuguese blade.(Del) Rey inscribed on blade at 4th picture. It is noted that the three primary reasons why they were in the Indian Ocean region was because they sought Gold and Silver, Spices and Mercenaries. In addition, they took a lot of their Mercenaries from India...as well as the likelihood of a blade transition through trade.

Interesting; what look like Dukari Moons locally applied.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[ariel]

Ibrahim,

You are correct 100%. But Angria's snide remark is the only known reference to the "inferiority" of European blades. In fact, they were the object of awe and desire among the locals and there were multitudes of them on Indian weapons to the point of creation of specific classes such as "firangi" and "alemani". North Sumatran Piso Podang ( heavily influenced by Indians) got its name from the Portugese espadao. European officers bought Indian and Persian blades because of their wootz-y beauty but the natives hunted for European blades because of their quality.

Angria was just snarking out his "sour grapes" :-)

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by ariel

Ibrahim,

You are correct 100%. But Angria's snide remark is the only known reference to the "inferiority" of European blades. In fact, they were the object of awe and desire among the locals and there were multitudes of them on Indian weapons to the point of creation of specific classes such as "firangi" and "alemani". North Sumatran Piso Podang ( heavily influenced by Indians) got its name from the Portugese espadao. European officers bought Indian and Persian blades because of their wootz-y beauty but the natives hunted for European blades because of their quality.

Angria was just snarking out his "sour grapes" :-)

Salaams Ariel... History is full of odd remarks and India by its very size must be teeming with them... Well noted on the Piso Podang. It rather underlines the importance of India as an Ethnographic hub and clearly it is a candidate to be treated in its own right as an Ethnographic Region. The difficulty I suppose is that many other countries weapons are reflected in and by Indian styles.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[ariel]

Ibrahim,
You are correct again.

I am fascinated by Indian swords and collect them avidly. Their imagination and ethno-religious undertones are unsurpassing. I do not collect European weapons: IMHO, they are technologically so thoughtful and goal-oriented, that to me they are boring:-)

But my perspective is that of a collector, not a user.

If I had to choose a sword for a battle, my absolute preference would be for a European one rather than Indian. Interestingly, the Indians thought the same: they mass -produced blades with fake European markings as a sign of the highest quality. How many British swords with fake Indian markings were manufactured in England? :-)))))

[sirupate]

From Swordsman in the British Empire
1.Maj. Waller Ashe (King’s Dragoon Guards) observed that most sowars or Indian cavalrymen were “far better swordsmen than our own troopers, whose cumbersome sabres, that won’t cut and cannot point, with their heavy steel scabbards, are not to be compared with the native tulwar, whose keen razor-like edge enables its owner to lop off a head or a limb as easily as cutting a cabbage. Our English regulation scabbards are heavy, difficult to clean, blunt the sword, and make such a rattle that a secret reconnaissance with them is impossible. These sowars have scabbards of solid brown leather, lined thinly with wood.” (Personal Records of the Kandahar Campaign, 1881.)
2. Col. Richard Bayly, 12th Foot: “To give an idea of the temper, sharpness, and weight of the swords of all these [Mysorean] men, I have only to mention that the barrel of one of the men’s muskets was completely cut in two by one stroke.” (Diary of Colonel Bayly, 1896.)
3. “Major Hunter, 41st Native Infantry, advanced a few paces in front of his men [during the storming of Bhurtpore in 1826] and offered him [Khoosial Singh, a Jat chief] quarter; when, with warlike fury, Khoosial Singh replied to the speaker by a terrific blow. Major Hunter put up his scabbard as a guard; but such was the stoutness of arm of the gallant Jat, so great the sharpness of his sword, that the scabbard was cut through as if it had been paper, and Major Hunter’s left arm nearly severed. Our men then rushed on Khoosial Singh, who fell pierced with innumerable bayonet wounds.” (Viscountess Combermere & Capt. W. W. Knollys, Memoirs and Correspondence of Field Marshal Viscount Combermere, 1866.)
4. Regarding a mutiny of sowars or troopers of the Hyderabad Contingent Cavalry in 1827: “Lieut. Stirling, whilst making a thrust at one of the mutineers, had his sword arm cut to the bone, just above the wrist; and his arm would probably have been taken off had not Lieut. Harrington’s sword, which was cut half through by the same blow, received a great part of the weight of it; whilst he, at the same instant, ran the desperado through the body.” (Asiatic Journal, 1827.)
5. Regarding Lt. & Adjt. C. D. La Touche of the Southern Mahratta Horse: “He had a narrow escape; a matchlock was leveled directly at his face, when a ressaldar [captain] made a cut at it with his sword, severing the barrel at a blow.” (Telegraph and Courier, Dec. 9, 1857.)
6. Maj. Gen. Osborn Wilkinson, Indian Army: “One day, during the siege of Lucknow, I met my old friend [Lt. M. M.] Prendergast who unsheathed his weapon [a Wilkinson] and laughingly showed me the remains of it. It had just been cut clean in two by a slash from a native tulwar, and [Lt. T. C.] Graham’s sword [a Prosser] was broken in an encounter he had with a Pandy [mutineer]—the sword having been smashed in his hand.” (Memoirs, 1896.) 7. Among others, Ensign Augustus H. Alexander (a cavalry brigadier’s a.d.c.) noted that in the 1st Sikh War “we are no match for them in hand-to- hand work. They use their swords and manage their horses a great deal better than we do.” (New Zealand Spectator, Sept. 26, 1846.)
8. “The enemy exhibited frightful ferocity, and with their sharp tulwars (or native swords) hewed off heads and hands and arms by a single blow.” And regarding “the deficiency of our cavalry in proper weapons”, “the weight, badness of balance, and the wretched steel
of which their swords were made gave the enemy a vast superiority over them at close quarters. Like most Asiatics, the Sikhs kept their short handy swords as keen as razors— swords that sliced at every stroke; and we are told that ‘our poor fellows laboured in vain with their long, awkward, and blunt sabres to draw blood’.” (James Grant, British Battles on Land and Sea, 1889.)
9. Lt. E. J. Thackwell, 3rd Dragoons: “The tulwar has a broader back, thicker blade, and keener edge [than the British regulation sword]; and the enemy are in the habit of delivering the drawing cut, a most cutting kind of blow. That flimsy piece of steel called the regulation sword the powerful tulwar of the Sikh shivered to atoms with a blow.
10. Whilst [the leading squadron of the 3rd Dragoons under Captain] Unett was charging [at Chillianwallah in 1849], a Sikh cut at him from behind. A private dragoon, close behind his gallant leader, interposed his sword; the Sikh’s tulwar not only shivered it to pieces, but penetrating Unett’s pouch, entered his back. On several occasions, the English steel was found inferior. Moreover, the enemy were almost invulnerable from the shields, armour, and wadded clothes they wore. The men of the 9th Lancers often failed to pierce them [with their lances].” (Narrative of the Second Sikh War, 1851.) 11. “Single combats were of no unfrequent occurrence [during the battle of Chillianwallah], and in these the Sikh soldier not unfrequently had the advantage. The weapon with which he is armed has a broader back, a thicker blade, as well as a keener edge than ours, and affords him a signal advantage. The gashes inflicted by the tulwar, beneath the stroke of which our steel was shivered to splinters, were frightful.” (E. J. Thackwell, “Confessions of an Old Dragoon,” Colburn’s United Service Magazine, 1854.)
12. John Ship fighting a Gorkha Sobar
With this I was obliged to act on the defensive, till I could catch my formidable opponent off his guard. He cut, I guarded; he thrust, I parried; until he became aggravated and set to work with that impetuosity and determination pretty generally understood by the phrase ‘hammer and tongs’; in the course of which he nearly cut my poor twenty-fourther in pieces.

[Mercenary]

Originally Posted by sirupate

From Swordsman in the British Empire

Million thanks! And it is only the small part of citations from this excellent book.
But I still believe in the decency of some participants and look forward to seeing some citations:
Ariel, could you post some citations about

In fact, they were the object of awe and desire among the locals

[mahratt]

Mercenary, Ariel just did not see your post.

I can not believe that Ariel has no citations in support of what he says in this thread ...

[Jens Nordlunde]

Sirupate,
Thank you very much for your quotes - they are very interesting.
They are very interesting, and shows that even quite late in history the Indian blades could fully compare to the European blades.
Quite early the English writers started to tell that the Indian blades could not compare to the European blades, and it may have been so in some cases, but far from in all cases.
European marks were used a lot on Indian weapons, but this does not mean that the Indian blades were of a lesser quality.
I too have a number of Indian blades with European markings, but as far as I can judge of a very high quality.

Jim, You have seen pictures of some of my swords, and know that they have European markings, although they are TrueIndian, and of a very high quality as well.
I think good and bad quality of blades were made in most countries. Many exporting countries saw no reason why they should export high quality blades, when other blades sold, till they did not sell any more, so I find it wrong to say, that the European blades were of a higher quality than the Indian ones. True that the metal scabbards did not help the Euorpeans.
Jens

[Jim McDougall]

One of the reasons we initiated the European forum in 2008 is because of the very fact that so many European blades are found mounted in ethnographic context, and India was profoundly one of these.
We opened that forum in order not only to discuss European arms and armor themselves but to become a cross reference to the many weapons cross diffused.

As far as I know, that quote noted from 1750 by Grose (it seems it was in Pant where it is cited) is indeed the only detrimental reference to the European or particularly English blades. Elgood notes the profusion of blades from Europe which flowed in India in the 17th and 18th c. (Hindu Arms and Ritual). The Mahrattas were pronounced traders who brought in European blades in propensity, hence the development of the basket hilt on the traditional khanda and the noted term 'firangi' loosely used in variation in a number of languages to refer to foreign blades.

While the English blades may have been less than favored in the Deccan southward and in the Malabar and Mahratta regions, in the northwest there was a distinct favor for the M1796 light cavalry blade. In the many narratives noting the horrific results of attacks with native tulwars (in Sirupates post inclusive) I recall comments from Capt. Lewis Nolan ('Charge of the Light Brigade fame who had served in India) who stated the same comments about the dreadful effectiveness of the native warriors' and their use of their tulwars.
He then described how horrified the British were when they discovered that the blades in these very tulwars were their own discarded M1796 cavalry sabre blades!
Apparantly the secret was that these warriors constantly sharpened their blades to razor sharpness then carried them constantly oiled and cared for in wooden scabbards (contrary to the dulling iron of British regulation patterns).

The British M1796 light cavalry blades remained in favor of many of the native cavalry units into the 1930s (I have seen and handled a number of these) and versions of these were produced into the 1880s and later specifically in England for these units.

I have seen many Indian tulwars with British blades of Osborn and other M1796 makers, and have an Indian tulwar with a M1788 blade (an exception to the 1796s). The later British blades were not as favored, however many of the M1853 pattern swords found use in Indian units.

Getting back to the western regions and Mahrattas as well as Malabar trade. Many blades from the 'Red Sea' trade carrying mostly German blades but naturally others which became mingled from Italy and others certainly entered these regions. That they were much favored is combined with the fact the the 'Alemani' (=German) swords were much present with the mercenary forces of Europe in the Deccan. Hyder Ali and his son Tipu Sahib used these forces constantly as well as their weapons.
Tipu had an 'ANDREA FERARA' bladed sword which he much favored.

The pata shown at the top in post #2 does indeed have a Sudanese kaskara blade (I have had with similar blade for many years) and have not yet found evidence that these 'dukari' (moons) are ever placed on European blades in this parallel fashion. Therefore it seems curious to see movement of these blades OUT of the North African sphere.

Indian makers who produced blades directly in imitation of European blades often applied copying of the inscriptions and markings to represent the quality of the European blades imbued into their own.

I have never been focused on one field of study and have always followed ethnographic as well as European , and the profound connections and mystery in all combined has been constant fascination in all counts!

[Mercenary]

Originally Posted by ariel

Angria was just snarking out his "sour grapes" :-)

All as always )))
Someone is searching through the primary sources, trying to let other people to know some new things, while someone is just looking at the old coins and get understanding of the truth immediately ))
Could you post some citations about

In fact, they were the object of awe and desire among the locals

Not of the color albums, but of travellers' descriptions. Be so kind.