Sawfish sword

Mercenary · 8th January 2016, 02:11 PM

Some more images. And as I know in Italian journal in English will be published the articles of D.Miloserdov ("mahratt" on the forum) about the weapons from rostrum of sawfish in Indo-Persian region.

ariel · 9th January 2016, 12:11 AM

I guess there are three distinct groups of such "swords":

1. Genuine native examples . Those need to be treated with respect: their owners were true warriors who used the only materials available to them with imagination and dignity.

2. Scrimshaw examples made often (if not mostly) by bored sailors or beachcombers to pass time or just to enjoy the ability to fashion something pretty. Those are good examples of folk arts and crafts, with no connection to any military purpose or tradition. In the same category as trench art.

3. Pretentious mixes of true military parts ( handles mostly) and plain sawfish rostra, despite easy availability of true fighting blades. Those I would view as shameless pretenders, exotics for its own sake and ,- most likely,- touristy items. They have neither fighting purpose, nor artistic flair. Discussing them seriously is akin to pondering upon military significance of General Tso's chicken.

Mercenary · 9th January 2016, 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

I guess

Why guess? You have read the article in Russian. May I post your public review here? Your opinion will be very important for colleagues:

Quote:

Very good article: a detailed, sober and indisputable examples.
With respect.
Ariel

Mercenary · 11th January 2016, 08:39 PM

From Palace Museum of Forbidden City. Qing Dinasty:

Tim Simmons · 11th January 2016, 08:49 PM

Great contribution ! If you were to be slashed by a sawfish sword weapon you would be in a very poor state. I think it has been established that pre industrial communities used these natural resources as weapons. That is all I wanted to show in the beginning.

VANDOO · 18th January 2016, 06:51 PM

HERE IS AN EXAMPLE OF A NATIVE MADE SAWFISH SWORD AND ONE MADE INTO A SOUVENIR FROM COSTA RICA. NO DOUBT THESE SAWFISH BILLS HAVE BEEN OF INTEREST TO MAN FROM PREHISTORIC TIMES EITHER AS A WEAPON OR CURIOSITY OR TROPHY. UNFORTUNATELY THE SAWFISH IS EASILY FOULED IN NETS AND IS FOUND IN SHALLOW WATERS SO IS OFTEN CAUGHT AND KILLED BY ACCIDENT BY THOSE FISHING FOR OTHER KINDS OF FISH. I HAVE NEVER HEARD OF A COMMERCIAL FISHERY FOR THEM SO THEY MUST NOT BE TASTY. THEY ARE THE LAST THING A FISHERMAN WOULD WANT IN HIS NET, CAN YOU IMAGINE A 600 POUND SAWFISH TANGLED IN YOUR NET GETTING IT OUT AND THE DAMAGE DONE TO THE NET WOULD RUIN A DAYS FISHING. AND IT SURE WOULD NOT DO THE SAWFISH ANY GOOD. THOUGH I DON'T LIKE SEEING A PAINTED SAWFISH BILL SOUVENIR I SUPPOSE ITS BETTER THAN JUST THROWING SUCH COOL OBJECTS IN THE TRASH HEAP.

#1. & #2. SAWFISH SWORD FROM PAPUA NEW GUINEA NATIVE MADE.
31.75 IN LONG
#3. COSTA RICAN SOUVENIR CIRCA 1960 22 IN. LONG
#4. 12 FOOT LONG ,CAUGHT 1920'S FLORIDA I WOULD ESTIMATE THE BILL TO BE AROUND 30 IN. LONG
#5 & #6 ARE FROM HEDGES OLD BOOK GIANT FISH, I CAN'T VOUCH FOR THE INFORMATION GIVEN, BUT IF TRUE THEY TRULY ARE HUGE.
#7. A VERY LARGE SAWFISH

A BOY CAUGHT A 900 POUND SAWFISH AT GALVESTON TEXAS IN THE 1970'S THERE WERE PICTURES AND AN ARTICLE IN THE PAPER BUT I DON'T REMEMBER THE LENGTH. I HAVE SEEN A LARGE SAWFISH ROSTRUM IN A MUSEUM SOMEWHERE THAT WOULD HAVE MADE A GOOD LADDER TO CLIMB INTO A BUNK BED.

ariel · 18th January 2016, 07:17 PM

Good examples, Vandoo.
Weapons outlive their purpose and with it their meaning.

Islanders used sawfish swords as true weapons, just like Native Americans used flint knives. They did it for as long as there were no replacements.
When (and if) iron became available, newly-made examples ceased to exist as historical weapons and became art objects, ceremonial/parade contraptions, tourist fodder etc.

I would find it impossible to believe that despite wide availability of iron implements, sawfish swords retained even a minimal role as weapons per se. The Chinese, German and Indian examples shown here are just arts and crafts. Nobody in his right mind would actually pit them against even the crudest steel sword.

As a matter of fact, even steel swords share the same fate: millions of them shed blood in the 17-18 centuries, but now, with tanks, missiles, planes and machine guns, swords are just parade toys.

And in another vein: would any of us collect modern China- or India-made swords made out of even the most beautiful damascus?

8th January 2016, 02:11 PM	#1
Mercenary Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Moscow, Russia Posts: 426	Some more images. And as I know in Italian journal in English will be published the articles of D.Miloserdov ("mahratt" on the forum) about the weapons from rostrum of sawfish in Indo-Persian region. Attached Images

9th January 2016, 12:11 AM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I guess there are three distinct groups of such "swords": 1. Genuine native examples . Those need to be treated with respect: their owners were true warriors who used the only materials available to them with imagination and dignity. 2. Scrimshaw examples made often (if not mostly) by bored sailors or beachcombers to pass time or just to enjoy the ability to fashion something pretty. Those are good examples of folk arts and crafts, with no connection to any military purpose or tradition. In the same category as trench art. 3. Pretentious mixes of true military parts ( handles mostly) and plain sawfish rostra, despite easy availability of true fighting blades. Those I would view as shameless pretenders, exotics for its own sake and ,- most likely,- touristy items. They have neither fighting purpose, nor artistic flair. Discussing them seriously is akin to pondering upon military significance of General Tso's chicken.

11th January 2016, 08:39 PM	#4
Mercenary Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Moscow, Russia Posts: 426	From Palace Museum of Forbidden City. Qing Dinasty: Attached Images

11th January 2016, 08:49 PM	#5
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,843	Great contribution ! If you were to be slashed by a sawfish sword weapon you would be in a very poor state. I think it has been established that pre industrial communities used these natural resources as weapons. That is all I wanted to show in the beginning.

18th January 2016, 06:51 PM	#6
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	HERE IS AN EXAMPLE OF A NATIVE MADE SAWFISH SWORD AND ONE MADE INTO A SOUVENIR FROM COSTA RICA. NO DOUBT THESE SAWFISH BILLS HAVE BEEN OF INTEREST TO MAN FROM PREHISTORIC TIMES EITHER AS A WEAPON OR CURIOSITY OR TROPHY. UNFORTUNATELY THE SAWFISH IS EASILY FOULED IN NETS AND IS FOUND IN SHALLOW WATERS SO IS OFTEN CAUGHT AND KILLED BY ACCIDENT BY THOSE FISHING FOR OTHER KINDS OF FISH. I HAVE NEVER HEARD OF A COMMERCIAL FISHERY FOR THEM SO THEY MUST NOT BE TASTY. THEY ARE THE LAST THING A FISHERMAN WOULD WANT IN HIS NET, CAN YOU IMAGINE A 600 POUND SAWFISH TANGLED IN YOUR NET GETTING IT OUT AND THE DAMAGE DONE TO THE NET WOULD RUIN A DAYS FISHING. AND IT SURE WOULD NOT DO THE SAWFISH ANY GOOD. THOUGH I DON'T LIKE SEEING A PAINTED SAWFISH BILL SOUVENIR I SUPPOSE ITS BETTER THAN JUST THROWING SUCH COOL OBJECTS IN THE TRASH HEAP. #1. & #2. SAWFISH SWORD FROM PAPUA NEW GUINEA NATIVE MADE. 31.75 IN LONG #3. COSTA RICAN SOUVENIR CIRCA 1960 22 IN. LONG #4. 12 FOOT LONG ,CAUGHT 1920'S FLORIDA I WOULD ESTIMATE THE BILL TO BE AROUND 30 IN. LONG #5 & #6 ARE FROM HEDGES OLD BOOK GIANT FISH, I CAN'T VOUCH FOR THE INFORMATION GIVEN, BUT IF TRUE THEY TRULY ARE HUGE. #7. A VERY LARGE SAWFISH A BOY CAUGHT A 900 POUND SAWFISH AT GALVESTON TEXAS IN THE 1970'S THERE WERE PICTURES AND AN ARTICLE IN THE PAPER BUT I DON'T REMEMBER THE LENGTH. I HAVE SEEN A LARGE SAWFISH ROSTRUM IN A MUSEUM SOMEWHERE THAT WOULD HAVE MADE A GOOD LADDER TO CLIMB INTO A BUNK BED. Attached Images Last edited by VANDOO; 18th January 2016 at 07:56 PM.

18th January 2016, 07:17 PM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Good examples, Vandoo. Weapons outlive their purpose and with it their meaning. Islanders used sawfish swords as true weapons, just like Native Americans used flint knives. They did it for as long as there were no replacements. When (and if) iron became available, newly-made examples ceased to exist as historical weapons and became art objects, ceremonial/parade contraptions, tourist fodder etc. I would find it impossible to believe that despite wide availability of iron implements, sawfish swords retained even a minimal role as weapons per se. The Chinese, German and Indian examples shown here are just arts and crafts. Nobody in his right mind would actually pit them against even the crudest steel sword. As a matter of fact, even steel swords share the same fate: millions of them shed blood in the 17-18 centuries, but now, with tanks, missiles, planes and machine guns, swords are just parade toys. And in another vein: would any of us collect modern China- or India-made swords made out of even the most beautiful damascus?