A GERMAN FIGHTING TWO HAND SWORD LATE 16 TH CENTURY

[cornelistromp]

Jean Luc as mailed to you, I believe the sword is from the third quarter of the 16th century, around 1570, that is indeed when this type of pommel came in fashion.
Engravers were mostly illiterate, so wrote the words phoenetisch or/and sometimes exchanged and added characters in a word.
U did not exist, U came only in the 17th century, so the V was used as a vowel and consonant.
this is what I can make of it, the meaning is not yet entirely clear to me.

IN TE DOMENS SIE so in your name

NIHI ES IN LUCO(LO) you are nothing in a grove/you have no significance between all people.

IL IUSTO VOLE CHE (=HEC) the things wished for.

SIAN PONI-TO AMIA sian assigned/connected to amia

SEPIUS OMEN JONON. often signs/augury of jonah/jonasis


The sword has a rounded point as some landsknecht swords have, perfect for cutting this was probably as it originally was.


I will check the two-headed eagle mark and lion c.o.a mark if I can be with my books again.

beautiful blade geometry from 3 to 2 fullers along the entire length.


best,
jasper

[Cerjak]

Thank you jasper I was waiting your imput about the punches ,hoping you could find something about the two-headed eagle & lion mark . So after next step : find a place to hang it to the wall !
For sure you already had this problem: How to hang such big sword ?
I guess that a vertical stand would be the best solution.
Best
Jean-Luc

[Jim McDougall]

This is a most fascinating sword, mostly because it has more complexity in it than being a 16th century zweihander, but because it's blade seems to have begun as noted, a genuine combat blade of the 16th century, but the sword itself appears to have continued much later . Many of these old combat swords became venerated old arms and served on as processional and bearing swords.
This example seems to have been rehilted later with mountings in accord with original form, perhaps later in the 16th or possibly into early 17th.
The most interesting thing, aside from the intriguing inscriptions as the linguistics continue evaluation, are the profuse markings and motif that cover the blade.

In my opinion, the punzones at the forte adjacent to the parry hooks suggest a German made blade using the typical Spanish type marks. I have not yet found corresponding examples in the compendiums of markings, but the crescent moon on one side suggests the mark often used by the espaderos del rey ( royal smiths in Spain) as shown in Palomares plate.
It seems however that the posture is facing reverse to those usually seen in the originals.
The double head eagle was apparently to Sebastian Hernandez elder (1599-1637) and continued by son 1634-39 but illustration was not available as yet.
The double head eagle also seems to have been used by Solingen maker Andreas Berns c 1580-90 but the form looks different (this was used again far later by descendant). There also is implication that a double head eagle was used in Passau, however form and certainty seem unclear.

I have not yet found evidence of a walking lion but Josepe Bustindui in Valencia used a rampant lion, (Boeheim, 1890, p.667) but no date.

These findings simply reaffirm to me they must have been applied to the blade originally in the German shop following the usual spurious applications of Spanish and other markings.

The remainder of the 'motif' over the blade suggests it was applied later after the veneration of the blade and that these intriguing markings consist considerably of magically oriented sigils and symbolism intended to imbue justification and representation of power in its probable use as a bearing symbol.
I think there is compelling possibility this sword may have found use later in the mysterious Westphalian tribunals in Germany known as the courts of the Free Judges. The glyph like nature of the symbolic motif suggests the use of occult and magical themes which are similar to some elements of the motif associated with their regalia and implements. Interestingly these courts often used 'executioner' type swords with rebated or rounded points. These were not actually 'heading' swords, but symbolic of the power they and the courts held...over life and death.
The motif is far over embellished for a combat blade and these kinds of markings and embellishments correspond to those known in various occult themes of the 17th and through the 18th centuries.

It is believed that the use of scriptural quotations and names would enhance the powers of sigils and magical glyphs and devices. While the theme of most of these inscriptions are not Biblical, the use of Jesus Maria may be aligned with this thought. This particular inscription was typically used by Milanese armourers as well as the Ayala's in Spain.

It is interesting to note the astrological type of radiating lines and the characters that circumvent the distinctly cosmological crescent moon. The other Cabbalistically oriented devices as well as the use of the joined arcs seen on the familiar 'anchors' and the asterisk like 'stars' also seem to support this kind of theme.

Absolutely fascinating sword !!! with far more history beyond its working life as a combat weapon.

[cornelistromp]

@ Jim
Jim thanks you for your Always very valuable commentary, with a good track to potential sword makers of this piece

there are always questions often by collectors including myself how with these swords could be fought, more then often two-handed swords are wrongly dismissed as processional swords.

here is a good demonstration on youtube of how these two hand techniques must have looked like.


http://www.oakeshott.org/Figueiredo_...s_and_Hick.pdf

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYNy_drriXs

I believe this sword is homogeneous ( all the parts belonging together) from the third quarter of the 16th century.
I hope the marks will give more clarity at a later stage.
so 3/4 16thC! however with the note that some of the blade decoration can indeed be applied later in the 19th century.
The latin inscription seems to me from the 16thC.

for an Italian sword with similar fuller Latin inscription see pictures
and post #141

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ght=katzbalger

[batjka]

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

@ Jim
Jim thanks you for your Always very valuable commentary, with a good track to potential sword makers of this piece

there are always questions often by collectors including myself how with these swords could be fought, more then often two-handed swords are wrongly dismissed as processional swords.

here is a good demonstration on youtube of how these two hand techniques must have looked like.


http://www.oakeshott.org/Figueiredo_...s_and_Hick.pdf

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYNy_drriXs

I believe this sword is homogeneous ( all the parts belonging together) from the third quarter of the 16th century.
I hope the marks will give more clarity at a later stage.
so 3/4 16thC! however with the note that some of the blade decoration can indeed be applied later in the 19th century.
The latin inscription seems to me from the 16thC.

for an Italian sword with similar fuller Latin inscription see pictures
and post #141

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ght=katzbalger

This is a beautiful sword indeed, and I have learned a great deal from you gentlemen. Thank you for showing it and discussing it here.

As far as the use of this type of weapon, I have to disagree with the above-mentioned links. The treatise and the video are meant for a Montante, which was an Iberian phenomenon. The sword in question is a German two-hander and would have been handled quite differently. I believe that the German use would be close to the Lightenauer lineage than to the Spanish/Portuguese style.

[cornelistromp]

Originally Posted by batjka

This is a beautiful sword indeed, and I have learned a great deal from you gentlemen. Thank you for showing it and discussing it here.

As far as the use of this type of weapon, I have to disagree with the above-mentioned links. The treatise and the video are meant for a Montante, which was an Iberian phenomenon. The sword in question is a German two-hander and would have been handled quite differently. I believe that the German use would be close to the Lightenauer lineage than to the Spanish/Portuguese style.

yes you are absolutely right, although there is much overlap, this is absolutely not the right school for this sword.
nevertheless it is useful to give a visual impression of two-handed sword techniques.

According to Thomas Del Mar the sword can be Italian or German, out of interest what makes you think the sword is German?

best,
Jasper

[batjka]

Jasper,

I have no experience judging the exact origins of these swords. It looks Germanic in form, and the title says "German", so I did not think otherwise.

Coming back to how these were used in battle, I found a curious article that might she'd some light on it:

http://www.renaissancewarfare.com/1_...he-Doppel.html

[ulfberth]

I believe Jim has revealed the reason for the abundance on decoration on the blade.
Since the original question was mainly about the blade , that was the only part I chose to comment on.
Now after the discussion about the pommel and type of guard has begun, I will take the liberty to comment on this to.
The blade is clearly 16th C no doubts about that and although the pommel and guard have the correct style for the blade I believe them to be of a later date.
Im sorry but the guard is just not 16th C, at best 17th or even 18th C and indeed assembled with the fighting blade for further use as a ceremonial or a sword of justice.
If we look at the alloy and metal surface of the cross guard we see it is different than that of the blade, it is also forged in a different manner. The patina and oxidation clearly show a very different pattern, very visible on the blade in all places and absent on all parts of the guard, the guard has just some light orange rust which can be cleaned of with some steel wool 000 were using steel wool on the blade this would have zero effect. One could argue that the guard is cleaned, But this is not the case because all lines of the cross guard are still sharp and as fresh as the day they were made.
I hope I have not offended anyone by clearing this up, after all the sword is still a valuable historical piece with a prolonged use for a different function.

Kind regards

Ulfberth

[cornelistromp]

Originally Posted by ulfberth

If we look at the alloy and metal surface of the cross guard we see it is different than that of the blade, it is also forged in a different manner.

Of course.

the composition of the steel is never matching between blade and hilt.
this is the case with virtually all the 16th century swords.
the blade and hilt come from different workshops, Passau and Solingen blades were exported national and to other countries where the hilt was made and mounted by a local blacksmith.



This is also the reason why we see beautiful blades in a coarser hilts and vice versa.

because the sword was obviously apart. the parts are probably cleaned separately.
so I would not worry about it, the type of pommel and guard are as you would expect here.


best,

[ulfberth]

Hello Jasper,

The blade usually has more hardness than the guard, the blade shows spots of oxidation all over as is to be expected and the guard almost none.
I have concerns when a sword that has supposedly been assembled for over 500 years with such a difference in patina, if that was the case the patina would be almost the same, the only exception would be if the guard has been blackened and this is not the case.
The style of the pommel and cross guard is indeed correct but that does not prove the are made in the same age.
I had many pictures of this sword from the recent auction, and the reason I chose not to bid was exactly that, it seems more people had the same thoughts because the price it sold for was less than half for a sword like this if all parts would belong together.
Of course I respect each and everyone's opinion, but lets just look at sword a bit more closer, the sword is the object of study, the books are the tool, have look at the evidence at hand and than form an opinion.

Kind regards

ulfberth

[Cerjak]

Thank you very much to all of you for your interest and input for this sword.
A special thank to Jim and Jasper, I did not expect so much!
Jim as usually you made a rigorous analysis very well documented to highlight a very interesting fact: This sword had two differents lives, I hope if possible that you could post some scans about your literature's Reference (particularly about double head eagle & walking lion)
Jasper very interesting link about the practice for such sword and of course all the time spend trying to figure out the words, tracing out the letters and of course the translation you made after.
Best

Jean-Luc

[cornelistromp]

Originally Posted by Cerjak

Thank you jasper I was waiting your imput about the punches ,hoping you could find something about the two-headed eagle & lion mark . So after next step : find a place to hang it to the wall !
For sure you already had this problem: How to hang such big sword ?
I guess that a vertical stand would be the best solution.
Best
Jean-Luc

how to hang a big sword.
this looks very nice;off the wall, out of line , point up and vertical.
minor problem, maybe you should get a few more of these types of swords


best,
Jasper

ps thanks for the pic. Carl!

[Cerjak]

Very nice Jasper but my walls are already full ...

[cornelistromp]

limit the space used by your wife...

best,
Jasper

[fernando]

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

limit the space used by your wife...

best,
Jasper

[Cerjak]

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

limit the space used by your wife...

best,
Jasper

Did you notice that she’s already seating in the ejection seat ?

[ulfberth]

The display on the wooden stand is very nice Jean Luc, it has the advantage as you can change its place.
It is an impressive sword, if you hang it on the wall its indeed best with some other big swords or as a center piece.

Kind regards

Ulfberth