A GERMAN FIGHTING TWO HAND SWORD LATE 16 TH CENTURY

Marcus den toom · 5th January 2016, 01:47 PM

I tried, but could not find any sentence. If i where you i would try and use some sort of clay and press it in the lettering and get a print. Or use a piece of paper, place it on the symbols and softly go over it with a pencil to get a print.

This is what i read...

in te eomine sie
hichi es i gucoio
it hoc

il iusto uowe chx
sian ponito amia

in te ic ominesie
mepius omen ponon

il iusto uowe hic
sian ponito amia

Cerjak · 5th January 2016, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcus den toom

I tried, but could not find any sentence. If i where you i would try and use some sort of clay and press it in the lettering and get a print. Or use a piece of paper, place it on the symbols and softly go over it with a pencil to get a print.

This is what i read...

in te eomine sie
hichi es i gucoio
it hoc

il iusto uowe chx
sian ponito amia

in te ic ominesie
mepius omen ponon

il iusto uowe hic
sian ponito amia

Hi Marcus,

Thank you very much for the time you spend trying to decipher the punches
This week end I will try this method with paper and carbon.
Best Jean-Luc

Marcus den toom · 5th January 2016, 04:04 PM

Hi Jean,

I also got a strange feeling that this is not pure Latin.
And the above part of the blade reads the same on both sides:

il iusto uowe hic
sian ponito amia

The N and H are unclear at certain point because they are both 5 "dots" and there are also a few unknown symbols like ic (beeing one symbol instead of two) etc.

Good fun to research so i am very curious to see the results of that paper

Cerjak · 5th January 2016, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcus den toom

Hi Jean,

I also got a strange feeling that this is not pure Latin.
And the above part of the blade reads the same on both sides:

il iusto uowe hic
sian ponito amia

The N and H are unclear at certain point because they are both 5 "dots" and there are also a few unknown symbols like ic (beeing one symbol instead of two) etc.

Good fun to research so i am very curious to see the results of that paper

Marcus,
In the description when I bought this sword was :
'IL IUSTO VOLE OHA/SIAN PONITO AMIA'
'ASITE DOMINE SIE/NIHIL DES IN NUCOLO/??P?'
But may be this text has no meaning...

fernando · 5th January 2016, 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cerjak

Marcus,
In the description when I bought this sword was :
'IL IUSTO VOLE OHA/SIAN PONITO AMIA'
'ASITE DOMINE SIE/NIHIL DES IN NUCOLO/??P?'
But may be this text has no meaning...

Yes, i just saw the seller's interpretation when browsing for the incription translation.
You are right in assuming that the text might have no full meaning. Some words are an approach to latin, like THE JUST WANTS TO PUT ???. Also Nihil is latin for NOTHING. But this could be one's imagination.

Cerjak · 5th January 2016, 05:35 PM

I found in one old thread from Jasper this two pics from two swords with similar pommels from same period ( because of the resolution I'm not 100 % sure but seems to be same polygonal shape
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...5&page=1&pp=30

Marcus den toom · 5th January 2016, 05:49 PM

What i gather the frase is that either it is a mix of different languages, or that the person inscribed something he heared of but did not know the correct grammar.

Like "in te eomine sie" could be "in e nomine sie" which would translate to: In the name of so. EDIT: the word Sie in German means "you" refering to either one or multiple persons (beeing one person, Sie with a capital letter is meant as respect mostly to a person older or above you. Sie can also refer to a group meaning "They"). Or just sie meaning she when written in lowercase.

hichi es i gucoio might be "Hi Hi es i **coio" which translates to "these belong to **coio"

Atached are two symbols of the second line of the first side of the underside of the sentence, thee last word begins with a G? and than a V (made clear by the extra punctuations, so not a U)? Very difficult to see

I also did find this sword at the thomas del mar sale, lot number 88 (forgive me if i overstep a boundry here).
They state it to be German or Italian. If this is indeed German, the chance of it beeing correct grammatically is very slim (German and Latin are quit different in al sorts of ways. It is also the main difference between German and Dutch, the latter beeing influenced by Latin).

cornelistromp · 7th January 2016, 05:40 PM

Jean Luc as mailed to you, I believe the sword is from the third quarter of the 16th century, around 1570, that is indeed when this type of pommel came in fashion.
Engravers were mostly illiterate, so wrote the words phoenetisch or/and sometimes exchanged and added characters in a word.
U did not exist, U came only in the 17th century, so the V was used as a vowel and consonant.
this is what I can make of it, the meaning is not yet entirely clear to me.

IN TE DOMENS SIE so in your name

NIHI ES IN LUCO(LO) you are nothing in a grove/you have no significance between all people.

IL IUSTO VOLE CHE (=HEC) the things wished for.

SIAN PONI-TO AMIA sian assigned/connected to amia

SEPIUS OMEN JONON. often signs/augury of jonah/jonasis

The sword has a rounded point as some landsknecht swords have, perfect for cutting this was probably as it originally was.

I will check the two-headed eagle mark and lion c.o.a mark if I can be with my books again.

beautiful blade geometry from 3 to 2 fullers along the entire length.

best,
jasper

5th January 2016, 05:35 PM	#6
Cerjak Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: FRANCE Posts: 1,065	similar pommel I found in one old thread from Jasper this two pics from two swords with similar pommels from same period ( because of the resolution I'm not 100 % sure but seems to be same polygonal shape http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...5&page=1&pp=30 Attached Images

5th January 2016, 05:49 PM	#7
Marcus den toom Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Netherlands Posts: 534	What i gather the frase is that either it is a mix of different languages, or that the person inscribed something he heared of but did not know the correct grammar. Like "in te eomine sie" could be "in e nomine sie" which would translate to: In the name of so. EDIT: the word Sie in German means "you" refering to either one or multiple persons (beeing one person, Sie with a capital letter is meant as respect mostly to a person older or above you. Sie can also refer to a group meaning "They"). Or just sie meaning she when written in lowercase. hichi es i gucoio might be "Hi Hi es i coio" which translates to "these belong to coio" Atached are two symbols of the second line of the first side of the underside of the sentence, thee last word begins with a G? and than a V (made clear by the extra punctuations, so not a U)? Very difficult to see I also did find this sword at the thomas del mar sale, lot number 88 (forgive me if i overstep a boundry here). They state it to be German or Italian. If this is indeed German, the chance of it beeing correct grammatically is very slim (German and Latin are quit different in al sorts of ways. It is also the main difference between German and Dutch, the latter beeing influenced by Latin). Attached Images Last edited by Marcus den toom; 6th January 2016 at 09:02 AM.

7th January 2016, 05:40 PM	#8
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	Jean Luc as mailed to you, I believe the sword is from the third quarter of the 16th century, around 1570, that is indeed when this type of pommel came in fashion. Engravers were mostly illiterate, so wrote the words phoenetisch or/and sometimes exchanged and added characters in a word. U did not exist, U came only in the 17th century, so the V was used as a vowel and consonant. this is what I can make of it, the meaning is not yet entirely clear to me. IN TE DOMENS SIE so in your name NIHI ES IN LUCO(LO) you are nothing in a grove/you have no significance between all people. IL IUSTO VOLE CHE (=HEC) the things wished for. SIAN PONI-TO AMIA sian assigned/connected to amia SEPIUS OMEN JONON. often signs/augury of jonah/jonasis The sword has a rounded point as some landsknecht swords have, perfect for cutting this was probably as it originally was. I will check the two-headed eagle mark and lion c.o.a mark if I can be with my books again. beautiful blade geometry from 3 to 2 fullers along the entire length. best, jasper Last edited by cornelistromp; 7th January 2016 at 05:51 PM.

5th January 2016, 01:47 PM	#1
Marcus den toom Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Netherlands Posts: 534	I tried, but could not find any sentence. If i where you i would try and use some sort of clay and press it in the lettering and get a print. Or use a piece of paper, place it on the symbols and softly go over it with a pencil to get a print. This is what i read... in te eomine sie hichi es i gucoio it hoc il iusto uowe chx sian ponito amia in te ic ominesie mepius omen ponon il iusto uowe hic sian ponito amia

5th January 2016, 04:04 PM	#3
Marcus den toom Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Netherlands Posts: 534	Hi Jean, I also got a strange feeling that this is not pure Latin. And the above part of the blade reads the same on both sides: il iusto uowe hic sian ponito amia The N and H are unclear at certain point because they are both 5 "dots" and there are also a few unknown symbols like ic (beeing one symbol instead of two) etc. Good fun to research so i am very curious to see the results of that paper