Is gold or suasa 'better'?

[Maurice]

Originally Posted by David

Yes, i've seen that info. Even if true, however, we certainly should not make the mistake of assuming that what might be true in Moro culture is also true in Jawa, Bali or other cultures of Indonesia. Since we are on the keris forum we should probably try to keep this discussion keris specific.

Yes but we are talking here about the talismanic function of suassa as a material, and not only on keris hilts or pendoks. Also suassa had been used on the magic "rings" and other Indonesian weapons.

But I agree we need to stay with facts, and not by assuming. Therefore it is worth to have this discussion, as this is a second source (though also Cato made failures ofcourse) which is talking about suassa more appreciated as gold.
A good friend forwarded me some other sources, which were telling the same in suassa, but I can't find it at the moment.

[Maurice]

I have put myself into the matter of Rumphius lately.
It is much more interesting as the small text Loedjoe is quoting at the start of this thread.
Rumphius was working by the VOC. This is very important.
VOC journals are most of the time very accurate, and not over exaggerated.
They sticked only to the facts, and also tested their findings if possible before writing it in journals to their superiors.
It was important to not exaggerate, as every VOC delegation needs to forward such a journal. If something seemed to be a mythe, they needed to research that again and that wasn't in favour of the first delegation who did the exaggeration and forwarded untruths to their superiors.

Further I was impressed by the Rumphius text and research he did on suassa.
He is writing about the different suassa types, contents of materials to make the suassa alloy, and all proven and tested by western VOC smiths. After that he wrote down his findings. So the research was very thoroughly!
Also there was a particular suassa alloy of different materials which they could not make, with the info obtained by native people. He also put that in his work, and that the natives probably helt something back in the info to him. He also put it that way in the text. That it had been checked, and it had been failed to make.
This all tells me that he was very accurate and not a man who only wrote something down to make a big book!

In such accurate work, he probably would write only down what he had been tested and was assure off, and not only what he had heard from saying by a single man.
I guess there could be a big truth in his very old work about suassa!
There is a good chance that, in the course of time, it changed and gold took over the place as the talismanic value of suassa had been gone to the natives by some dark unknown reason. And by stories passing on to their next generation, they forgot about the talismanic values of suassa. Later books than refer to gold as number one.
But I think it would be wise not only to stick to the latter books about gold in Indonesia, and also don't forget about Rumphius and to take the VOC traveller very serious, who had written down this suassa chapter very early, which he got at that time out of first hand. This was what natives told him about suassa around 1700's, before times that other books stated it as gold was most favorite.
He didn't had any earlier books to read about suassa, and with an "empty thought" he did his research and work.

I assume that nowadays, if something write a work about precious metals, would also read a lot of works, and got brainwashed that gold must be it from ancient times. Ruphius however was empty minded and did his own early research.

[David]

Here are two Javanese hilts made from gold, claimed to be a very early example from around the 11th century and the the from the 15th century. They are part of the Thompson collection of gold objects from Jawa which can be viewed here. I have no idea what carat any of these items are as it is not stated.
http://artgallery.yale.edu/exhibitions/objects/665820

[Maurice]

Originally Posted by David

Here are two Javanese hilts made from gold, claimed to be a very early example from around the 11th century and the the from the 15th century. They are part of the Thompson collection of gold objects from Jawa which can be viewed here. I have no idea what carat any of these items are as it is not stated.
http://artgallery.yale.edu/exhibitions/objects/665820

Beautiful hilts David!

I am not familiar with this collection unfortunately.
Are they also collected at that early time, and by whom?

I have no doubt that they did adorne gold.
But I have doubts and believe that suassa at that time is underestimated by todays collectors.
As the text by the VOC'er tells us, there was gold used also. But talismanicly more preferred as gold. Not that they didn't use gold and had everything made from suassa.

[David]

Most of the items in this collection seem to be from the early and middle Classic Periods of Jawa (some a bit later) and you can find this collection in book form as Old Javanese Gold.
http://artgallery.yale.edu/publicati...ty-art-gallery
I would love to see such a collection of suasa items from Jawa or more examples of images of suasa used on Javanese and Bali keris that can help support Rumphius' assertion that it was preferred over gold. I really cannot think of too many examples that i have actually seen of suasa on Javanese or Bali keris (that is to say my idea of suasa, since Alan has stated that the 19k rose gold in in the Balinese court keris would perhaps be called suasa by an Indonesian).

[David]

Here is what Frey has to say on the Talismanic use of gold on keris. Like most writers on keris we all know that Frey has had his own problems with accuracy.
http://tinyurl.com/pqf4vfh

[David]

A Javanese keris from the late 18th century that once belonged to the Regent of Yogyakarta. The pendok is gold with green enamel inlays.
It also seems to me that the preferred material for kinatah is generally gold, not suasa.