Is gold or suasa 'better'?

Maurice · 25th December 2015, 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

I think Maurice is referring to the text cited by Loedjoe at the opening of this topic.
Maurice, am I correct?

Hi Ariel,

Yes you are right.
Sorry if I wasn't clear enough.
After rereading my post, I see it was not clear indeed and I expresses wrong.

David R · 25th December 2015, 11:05 AM

Somewhere in this Forum there is a conversation about Gold versus Suasa and one comment made was that pure Gold was not "good for a Muslim" and so Suasa was used instead. I believe that in the Koran or in the Hadith there are various comments about vain display and even an injunction not to drink from a Gold cup.
I suspect the original passage above was a reflection of this idea.

Maurice · 25th December 2015, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David R

Somewhere in this Forum there is a conversation about Gold versus Suasa and one comment made was that pure Gold was not "good for a Muslim" and so Suasa was used instead. I believe that in the Koran or in the Hadith there are various comments about vain display and even an injunction not to drink from a Gold cup.
I suspect the original passage above was a reflection of this idea.

The Original passage above, is not saying that they use suassa instead of gold.
It says suassa is preferred because of thoughts that the one who wears it should be free of all kind of bad luck if something hit him, disease, or in war times.
Also it tells us that the emperor wears it more than gold, not that he did not wear gold.

Maybe gold was the most valuable bullion, but suassa could have been used more as talismanic purposes as gold, I suppose.

David · 25th December 2015, 09:55 PM

Or perhaps, just perhaps, the quoted passage is simply incorrect. That does happen as i am sure you all know. I cannot say that is the case here with any assuredness, however, everything that i have ever read previously about gold, specifically in regards to Javanese culture, falls more in line with what Alan has said. I am away from my reference books at the moment, but i do have one that is specifically related to the use of gold in Javanese culture and i will check in with that when i return. I cannot say, however, that i can recall seeing much of any use of suasa on Javanese keris at all and find the idea that any Javanese Susuhunan or Sultan would prefer suasa to pure gold a bit of a strange one indeed.

Battara · 26th December 2015, 12:43 AM

Cato in his Moro Swords states a similar idea, that suassa was preferred due to the effect of gold on men (making them weak).

I suspect also that another reason is expense as well as color variation.

David · 26th December 2015, 01:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

Cato in his Moro Swords states a similar idea, that suassa was preferred due to the effect of gold on men (making them weak).

I suspect also that another reason is expense as well as color variation.

Yes, i've seen that info. Even if true, however, we certainly should not make the mistake of assuming that what might be true in Moro culture is also true in Jawa, Bali or other cultures of Indonesia. Since we are on the keris forum we should probably try to keep this discussion keris specific.

ariel · 26th December 2015, 03:51 AM

True enough.
But to be honest, I also think that color of swassa is richer and more exquisite than that of even high quality gold.
The reddish hue is so elegant...
Pure IMHO, of course, but I am with the Sultan on that:-)

Maurice · 26th December 2015, 09:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Yes, i've seen that info. Even if true, however, we certainly should not make the mistake of assuming that what might be true in Moro culture is also true in Jawa, Bali or other cultures of Indonesia. Since we are on the keris forum we should probably try to keep this discussion keris specific.

Yes but we are talking here about the talismanic function of suassa as a material, and not only on keris hilts or pendoks. Also suassa had been used on the magic "rings" and other Indonesian weapons.

But I agree we need to stay with facts, and not by assuming. Therefore it is worth to have this discussion, as this is a second source (though also Cato made failures ofcourse) which is talking about suassa more appreciated as gold.
A good friend forwarded me some other sources, which were telling the same in suassa, but I can't find it at the moment.

25th December 2015, 09:55 PM	#4
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,237	Or perhaps, just perhaps, the quoted passage is simply incorrect. That does happen as i am sure you all know. I cannot say that is the case here with any assuredness, however, everything that i have ever read previously about gold, specifically in regards to Javanese culture, falls more in line with what Alan has said. I am away from my reference books at the moment, but i do have one that is specifically related to the use of gold in Javanese culture and i will check in with that when i return. I cannot say, however, that i can recall seeing much of any use of suasa on Javanese keris at all and find the idea that any Javanese Susuhunan or Sultan would prefer suasa to pure gold a bit of a strange one indeed. Last edited by David; 25th December 2015 at 11:30 PM.

25th December 2015, 11:05 AM	#2
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,131	Somewhere in this Forum there is a conversation about Gold versus Suasa and one comment made was that pure Gold was not "good for a Muslim" and so Suasa was used instead. I believe that in the Koran or in the Hadith there are various comments about vain display and even an injunction not to drink from a Gold cup. I suspect the original passage above was a reflection of this idea.

26th December 2015, 12:43 AM	#5
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,325	Cato in his Moro Swords states a similar idea, that suassa was preferred due to the effect of gold on men (making them weak). I suspect also that another reason is expense as well as color variation.

26th December 2015, 03:51 AM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	True enough. But to be honest, I also think that color of swassa is richer and more exquisite than that of even high quality gold. The reddish hue is so elegant... Pure IMHO, of course, but I am with the Sultan on that:-)