Kris question to the knowledgeables

Pusaka · 14th January 2006, 12:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MABAGANI

I don't think the sound of the universe can be credited to a mere mortal creation either but a reflection of its influence is plausible...hmm...oops...i mean...om...lolz.

Yes you are correct. That is the meaning of Om though, very similar to the Christian idea of logos, "In the beginning was the Word (sound,vibration), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" (John 1:1)

http://www.shaivam.org/mantra_pranava.htm

MABAGANI · 14th January 2006, 12:38 AM

My point was I don't deny Hindu/Budhist influence, nor do I deny Islamic influence depending on specific keris or kris, its possible to hold multiple truths within a statement without having theories conflict, but general statements encompassing every keris/kris becomes questionable.

John · 14th January 2006, 12:54 AM

Pusaka, interesting thoughts on the probable presence of "OM" symbols at the greneng area etc of Keris. Similar thoughts have crossed my mind too but have been looking forward to guys who have "walked more miles" in keris deliberations to hopefully decode the meanings more entirely or if they mean something else.

How do the texts on 2,3,4 and 5 read?

Pusaka · 14th January 2006, 02:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John

Pusaka, interesting thoughts on the probable presence of "OM" symbols at the greneng area etc of Keris. Similar thoughts have crossed my mind too but have been looking forward to guys who have "walked more miles" in keris deliberations to hopefully decode the meanings more entirely or if they mean something else.

How do the texts on 2,3,4 and 5 read?

Sorry, what do you mean text 2,3,4 & 5 ?

nechesh · 14th January 2006, 03:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pusaka

Sorry, what do you mean text 2,3,4 & 5 ?

Pusaka, i believe John is referring to your numbered illustrations.
John, the texts of 2 and 3 are the modern sanskrit letters for AUM linked together side by side to look like a Ron Dha Nunut.
And 4 and 5 are the ron dha and jenggot of the modern keris that Pusaka displayed.

Pusaka · 14th January 2006, 11:17 AM

Nechesh you say that the symbol I used for Om is modern, look again, did I use the modern symbol for Om?
Here is the Tibetan symbol for Om, slightly different in that the second character is inverted. The Tibetan symbol is certainly not modern.

Left: tibet

Mans · 14th January 2006, 02:25 PM

Very interesting thread and debate.....

But, how if the keris revealed came from the Animism and Dynamism period (because the Keris believed has the Tuah or supranatural power) before the Hindu, Budha or Islam period

Then, on the Hindu period, the keris has analyzed an given some symbols as the Ricikans which more real, beauty and has the sense...

So, Hindu, Budha and Islam period just continuing the keris cultures from the past period

.... or, the keris came from Hindu period, but with enthusiasm of Animism and Dynamism soul and pulling out the dogmatic values

nechesh · 14th January 2006, 03:12 PM

Hi Pusaka. Here's a link to the Javanese Alphabet.
http://www.omniglot.com/writing/javanese.htm
Take note of the letter Dha. This alphabet dates back to the 4thC. It is certainly derivative of ancient Brahmi and so there is certainly a Vedic connection. But we have yet to find any physical evidence that the "modern" keris, with all it's present ricikan such as the Ron Dha, is older than, say, 14thC. So it seems likely that the Ron Dha was developed in Jawa at that time where regardless of Vedic influences, the Javanese language and alphabet was in full swing. Devanagari script was developed around the 11thC primarily to write Sanskrit from ancient Brahmi script. http://www.omniglot.com/writing/devanagari.htm
This early form of Devanagari was similar, but not exactly like the form with which you are familar.
As far as i know, the Ron Dha has always been related to the Javanese letter Dha in Jawa and the surrounding areas. Though there is clearly a resemblance to the symbol of the AUM i think this is probably just a very interesting coincidence, or perhaps synchonicity. I see no reason why this would be considered secret knowledge or why the Javanese would pretend this feature represented a Dha when it was really secretly the AUM. What is perhaps more occult is the intended meaning of the letter Dha in this circumstance. That might be a more valuable avenue of study.
None of this is to deny that the keris was first developed as weapon of a primarily Vedic culture. As other influences such as Islam moved into the area the keris symbolism evolved and changed. Stil, elements of Jawa's pre-vedic animistic culture persisted as well. The beliefs of the area can never be clearly defined as merely this or that. It is much more complex.

nechesh · 14th January 2006, 12:56 AM

I like the way you think Pusaka. This is a very interesting theory. Unfortunately i think you have overlooked a couple of things. Sanskrit has been written in a number of different scripts over history; Bramhi, Kharoshti, and currently modern Devanagari, which is different from classical Devanagari. Your AUM script is a modern one, which i believe is the one put forth by the American Sanskrit Institite. It is very different from the sanskrit script used at the time of the origins of the keris (at least 600-700 yrs. ago, perhaps more).
The area on the keris know as the Ron Dha (pronounced Dho) is meant to represent the Javanese (Kawi) letter Dha. Ergo it's name. The script for this letter has also changed over the centuries and the current Surakarta Dha is not the same as the ancient dha of centuries before. We can see this reflected in the Ron Dha of ancient keris as compared to more recent blades. So the Ron Dha has also changed over the years.
So what you have done is attempt to match a 20th century script against a 19th century symbol , which looks nothing like the script or the symbol from 500+ years ago.
Still we are left with the question of what does (did) the Dha in the Ron Dha represent. Though i am reluctant to definitively say, i think you might be on the right track that it refers to a Godly concept.

14th January 2006, 11:17 AM	#6
Pusaka Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 341	Nechesh you say that the symbol I used for Om is modern, look again, did I use the modern symbol for Om? Here is the Tibetan symbol for Om, slightly different in that the second character is inverted. The Tibetan symbol is certainly not modern. Left: tibet Attached Images Last edited by Pusaka; 14th January 2006 at 11:39 AM.

14th January 2006, 02:25 PM	#7
Mans Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: East Java Posts: 137	Very interesting thread and debate..... But, how if the keris revealed came from the Animism and Dynamism period (because the Keris believed has the Tuah or supranatural power) before the Hindu, Budha or Islam period Then, on the Hindu period, the keris has analyzed an given some symbols as the Ricikans which more real, beauty and has the sense... So, Hindu, Budha and Islam period just continuing the keris cultures from the past period .... or, the keris came from Hindu period, but with enthusiasm of Animism and Dynamism soul and pulling out the dogmatic values Last edited by Mans; 14th January 2006 at 02:45 PM.

14th January 2006, 12:38 AM	#2
MABAGANI Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 221	My point was I don't deny Hindu/Budhist influence, nor do I deny Islamic influence depending on specific keris or kris, its possible to hold multiple truths within a statement without having theories conflict, but general statements encompassing every keris/kris becomes questionable.

14th January 2006, 12:54 AM	#3
John Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Land below the wind Posts: 135	Pusaka, interesting thoughts on the probable presence of "OM" symbols at the greneng area etc of Keris. Similar thoughts have crossed my mind too but have been looking forward to guys who have "walked more miles" in keris deliberations to hopefully decode the meanings more entirely or if they mean something else. How do the texts on 2,3,4 and 5 read?

14th January 2006, 03:12 PM	#8
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Hi Pusaka. Here's a link to the Javanese Alphabet. http://www.omniglot.com/writing/javanese.htm Take note of the letter Dha. This alphabet dates back to the 4thC. It is certainly derivative of ancient Brahmi and so there is certainly a Vedic connection. But we have yet to find any physical evidence that the "modern" keris, with all it's present ricikan such as the Ron Dha, is older than, say, 14thC. So it seems likely that the Ron Dha was developed in Jawa at that time where regardless of Vedic influences, the Javanese language and alphabet was in full swing. Devanagari script was developed around the 11thC primarily to write Sanskrit from ancient Brahmi script. http://www.omniglot.com/writing/devanagari.htm This early form of Devanagari was similar, but not exactly like the form with which you are familar. As far as i know, the Ron Dha has always been related to the Javanese letter Dha in Jawa and the surrounding areas. Though there is clearly a resemblance to the symbol of the AUM i think this is probably just a very interesting coincidence, or perhaps synchonicity. I see no reason why this would be considered secret knowledge or why the Javanese would pretend this feature represented a Dha when it was really secretly the AUM. What is perhaps more occult is the intended meaning of the letter Dha in this circumstance. That might be a more valuable avenue of study. None of this is to deny that the keris was first developed as weapon of a primarily Vedic culture. As other influences such as Islam moved into the area the keris symbolism evolved and changed. Stil, elements of Jawa's pre-vedic animistic culture persisted as well. The beliefs of the area can never be clearly defined as merely this or that. It is much more complex.

14th January 2006, 12:56 AM	#9
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	I like the way you think Pusaka. This is a very interesting theory. Unfortunately i think you have overlooked a couple of things. Sanskrit has been written in a number of different scripts over history; Bramhi, Kharoshti, and currently modern Devanagari, which is different from classical Devanagari. Your AUM script is a modern one, which i believe is the one put forth by the American Sanskrit Institite. It is very different from the sanskrit script used at the time of the origins of the keris (at least 600-700 yrs. ago, perhaps more). The area on the keris know as the Ron Dha (pronounced Dho) is meant to represent the Javanese (Kawi) letter Dha. Ergo it's name. The script for this letter has also changed over the centuries and the current Surakarta Dha is not the same as the ancient dha of centuries before. We can see this reflected in the Ron Dha of ancient keris as compared to more recent blades. So the Ron Dha has also changed over the years. So what you have done is attempt to match a 20th century script against a 19th century symbol , which looks nothing like the script or the symbol from 500+ years ago. Still we are left with the question of what does (did) the Dha in the Ron Dha represent. Though i am reluctant to definitively say, i think you might be on the right track that it refers to a Godly concept.