Kris question to the knowledgeables

Andrew · 13th January 2006, 10:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pusaka

I hope people can now understand how ridiculous it is to say the keris is a Muslim creation.

I don't think anyone has said this here.

Pusaka · 13th January 2006, 11:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew

I don't think anyone has said this here.

No they have not but I have met several that have. It is common among Silat practitioners. I think some schools even teach their students that the keris is a Muslim creation.

MABAGANI · 14th January 2006, 12:02 AM

I don't think the sound of the universe can be credited to a mere mortal creation either but a reflection of its influence is plausible...hmm...oops...i mean...om...lolz.

Pusaka · 14th January 2006, 12:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MABAGANI

I don't think the sound of the universe can be credited to a mere mortal creation either but a reflection of its influence is plausible...hmm...oops...i mean...om...lolz.

Yes you are correct. That is the meaning of Om though, very similar to the Christian idea of logos, "In the beginning was the Word (sound,vibration), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" (John 1:1)

http://www.shaivam.org/mantra_pranava.htm

MABAGANI · 14th January 2006, 12:38 AM

My point was I don't deny Hindu/Budhist influence, nor do I deny Islamic influence depending on specific keris or kris, its possible to hold multiple truths within a statement without having theories conflict, but general statements encompassing every keris/kris becomes questionable.

John · 14th January 2006, 12:54 AM

Pusaka, interesting thoughts on the probable presence of "OM" symbols at the greneng area etc of Keris. Similar thoughts have crossed my mind too but have been looking forward to guys who have "walked more miles" in keris deliberations to hopefully decode the meanings more entirely or if they mean something else.

How do the texts on 2,3,4 and 5 read?

Pusaka · 14th January 2006, 02:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John

Pusaka, interesting thoughts on the probable presence of "OM" symbols at the greneng area etc of Keris. Similar thoughts have crossed my mind too but have been looking forward to guys who have "walked more miles" in keris deliberations to hopefully decode the meanings more entirely or if they mean something else.

How do the texts on 2,3,4 and 5 read?

Sorry, what do you mean text 2,3,4 & 5 ?

nechesh · 14th January 2006, 03:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pusaka

Sorry, what do you mean text 2,3,4 & 5 ?

Pusaka, i believe John is referring to your numbered illustrations.
John, the texts of 2 and 3 are the modern sanskrit letters for AUM linked together side by side to look like a Ron Dha Nunut.
And 4 and 5 are the ron dha and jenggot of the modern keris that Pusaka displayed.

nechesh · 14th January 2006, 12:56 AM

I like the way you think Pusaka. This is a very interesting theory. Unfortunately i think you have overlooked a couple of things. Sanskrit has been written in a number of different scripts over history; Bramhi, Kharoshti, and currently modern Devanagari, which is different from classical Devanagari. Your AUM script is a modern one, which i believe is the one put forth by the American Sanskrit Institite. It is very different from the sanskrit script used at the time of the origins of the keris (at least 600-700 yrs. ago, perhaps more).
The area on the keris know as the Ron Dha (pronounced Dho) is meant to represent the Javanese (Kawi) letter Dha. Ergo it's name. The script for this letter has also changed over the centuries and the current Surakarta Dha is not the same as the ancient dha of centuries before. We can see this reflected in the Ron Dha of ancient keris as compared to more recent blades. So the Ron Dha has also changed over the years.
So what you have done is attempt to match a 20th century script against a 19th century symbol , which looks nothing like the script or the symbol from 500+ years ago.
Still we are left with the question of what does (did) the Dha in the Ron Dha represent. Though i am reluctant to definitively say, i think you might be on the right track that it refers to a Godly concept.

Kiai Carita · 14th January 2006, 01:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pusaka

No they have not but I have met several that have. It is common among Silat practitioners. I think some schools even teach their students that the keris is a Muslim creation.

Hi Pusaka,

Muslims (I am one) who tell you the keris is a Muslim creation are mistaken as the keris was in Jawa and Nusantara long before the Islam religion reached the archipelago. I don't think any school teaches that the keris is a Muslim creation. In Malaysia, the words masuk-Melayu which mean to enter (become) Malay have for a long time been synonimous to masuk-Islam (to enter Islam) and all Malay culture is seen as an expression of Islam, including the keris. This might be the source of confusion.

However the Muslim Saints who spread Islam in Nusantara did not totaly destroy the culture that was present there when they came, rather they preserved everything that could be sanctioned by Islam. So, for examples, the satiya widow burning was out but the keris as a symbolic weapon stayed: the wilah and the ganja which were originally the lingga and the yoni became the syahadat Tauhid and the syahadat Rasul. The keris luk 17 becomes representing the 17 raka'ats performed in sholat each day by the sallafi Muslims, and so on.

In the silat world the silat originating in Jawa, Madura or Bali (al keris making centres) don't use the keris as a weapon but in Malaysia it does. However, post-modern silat is seeing the keris being used as a weapon in West Java style fighting, taught by a Californian silat man who tries to tie his school with, amongst others, the traditional Cimande of Tarik Kolot. In the real Cimande the keris is never used as a weapon. Neither is the kujang, which is a specific Sundanese 'tosan-aji' used for farmers. However you can now learn Californian kujang jurus, which is 'most devastating'

.

Your post on the MAP forum about the relation to the script AUM and the janggut, the kembang kacang and greneng and ron dha nunut on the keris in the photo is interesting. Just remember that these ricikan are relatively new in kerisology and the first kerises were simple betok and brojols. The words ron dha nunut mean 'an added leaf of the letter dha'. Dha is the 12th character in the Jawa script hanacaraka. Several Muslim 'saints' who spread Islam in Jawa and Nusantara were also great keris designers, collectors and silat teachers hence the thinking that keris originated in Islam.

Warm salams to al,
KC

14th January 2006, 12:02 AM	#3
MABAGANI Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 221	I don't think the sound of the universe can be credited to a mere mortal creation either but a reflection of its influence is plausible...hmm...oops...i mean...om...lolz.

14th January 2006, 12:38 AM	#5
MABAGANI Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 221	My point was I don't deny Hindu/Budhist influence, nor do I deny Islamic influence depending on specific keris or kris, its possible to hold multiple truths within a statement without having theories conflict, but general statements encompassing every keris/kris becomes questionable.

14th January 2006, 12:54 AM	#6
John Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Land below the wind Posts: 135	Pusaka, interesting thoughts on the probable presence of "OM" symbols at the greneng area etc of Keris. Similar thoughts have crossed my mind too but have been looking forward to guys who have "walked more miles" in keris deliberations to hopefully decode the meanings more entirely or if they mean something else. How do the texts on 2,3,4 and 5 read?

14th January 2006, 12:56 AM	#9
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	I like the way you think Pusaka. This is a very interesting theory. Unfortunately i think you have overlooked a couple of things. Sanskrit has been written in a number of different scripts over history; Bramhi, Kharoshti, and currently modern Devanagari, which is different from classical Devanagari. Your AUM script is a modern one, which i believe is the one put forth by the American Sanskrit Institite. It is very different from the sanskrit script used at the time of the origins of the keris (at least 600-700 yrs. ago, perhaps more). The area on the keris know as the Ron Dha (pronounced Dho) is meant to represent the Javanese (Kawi) letter Dha. Ergo it's name. The script for this letter has also changed over the centuries and the current Surakarta Dha is not the same as the ancient dha of centuries before. We can see this reflected in the Ron Dha of ancient keris as compared to more recent blades. So the Ron Dha has also changed over the years. So what you have done is attempt to match a 20th century script against a 19th century symbol , which looks nothing like the script or the symbol from 500+ years ago. Still we are left with the question of what does (did) the Dha in the Ron Dha represent. Though i am reluctant to definitively say, i think you might be on the right track that it refers to a Godly concept.