Mantras keris and empu

[Pusaka]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

It is not the place of anybody who is not a part of the owning culture to dictate to people within that culture what is appropriate for the culture.

Thats exactly what my guru used to say however who was Indonesian although I would suspect that there would not be full agreement even among Indonesians as to what a keris is.

[A. G. Maisey]

Of course.

Keris culture is based upon a number of belief systems.

All of the great belief systems, all of the great philosophies, are based upon belief systems.

Do all of the followers of those great religions and great philosophies hold exactly the same views?

[Pusaka]

I think however there are many of the older Indonesians who will not consider a keris maker an empu unless he can give life to a blade, now the method that is followed to do that might have changed. I would imagine a Muslim would use prayers whilst a Hindu would use mantras, fasting and offerings might be carried out by both. "finger tuning" well I guess there is something to that also.

[David]

Originally Posted by Pusaka

I think however there are many of the older Indonesians who will not consider a keris maker an empu unless he can give life to a blade, now the method that is followed to do that might have changed.

Pusaka, are you operating under the impression that only an empu can create a "real" keris. If so you have eliminated a great deal of antique keris from the "real keris" category.

[Pusaka]

Originally Posted by David

Pusaka, are you operating under the impression that only an empu can create a "real" keris. If so you have eliminated a great deal of antique keris from the "real keris" category.

It is impossible to look at an ancient keris and know if the person who made it was an empu or not purely based on physical appearance. The technique to enliven a blade in its details is or was within a few family's and they dont hand that information freely out. Therefor without that knowledge (precise knowledge of the mantras etc) you cannot produce a living blade. You can produce a beautifully looking blade but you cant fill it ie it is a keris mati (a dead keris).

The question is what happens if you change religion can you still practice that ritual or do you have to change it?

There are legends in various silat schools about who the first empu was and who he inherited this knowledge from.

[David]

Originally Posted by Pusaka

There are legends in various silat schools about who the first empu was and who he inherited this knowledge from.

Yes Pusaka, they say a lot of things about keris in the various silat schools.
In response to your question i can only repeat the words which Alan has already written in this thread. Islam in Indonesia is not the same as Islam anywhere else in the world. It has assimilated past practices of the people of the region and traditions both animistic and Hindu in nature continue to this day. Yes, the intent and purpose of the keris certainly changed with the influx of Islam. Perhaps mantras changed, perhaps they stayed the same. As has already been pointed out, these mantras are not for you or i to know. However, it seems highly unlikely to me that there is just one correct mantra or only one way to install "life" into a keris blade.

[Mick]

This discussion is veering into one of the "mystical" properties of beliefs in regard to the keris.

There is a small number of people who profess that they have the ability to determine if a keris has been empowered. They don't look at the workmanship of a piece, but just handle it with the most important portion being the blade.

One of these people told me that an empowered blade will give a tingling feeling to his hands while a regular blade will not. This individual visited me before I left the country about 40 years ago, went through the 20 or so of the kerises that I had on hand and picked out about three or four as having power. I, obviously, don't profess to have this ability, so I didn't feel any difference between these kerises and the rest of the bunch. But this is one of the things that arise when you really study the subject of kerises.

There was a great deal of keris information that was never discussed by the local population as this material was "almost" considered sacred. In addition to this fact, the few real experts on this topic "even if you knew them and were friends" would guard their information fiercely. Trying to obtain information from them was like pulling their teeth. Unfortunately, these few people have since died and, because of this "in western opinion" character flaw their valuable information died with them.

[Pusaka]

Originally Posted by David

Yes Pusaka, they say a lot of things about keris in the various silat schools.

Silat is as old as the keris itself, therefore there are teachings regarding it that old too held by gurus.