Mantras keris and empu

[Pusaka]

Originally Posted by Rick

So, I guess this begs the question:

Can a "Real" Keris be made today?
And.
What exactly is a "Real" Keris?

A "real" keris must then be a Keris hidup and not real must be a Keris mati

[A. G. Maisey]

A real keris is a keris that is accepted by the culture that owns the artifact.

Real keris are being produced right now, today.

The nature of the keris is not frozen in time, this is the reason that it has survived for over 1000 years.

It is not the place of anybody who is not a part of the owning culture to dictate to people within that culture what is appropriate for the culture.

[Pusaka]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

It is not the place of anybody who is not a part of the owning culture to dictate to people within that culture what is appropriate for the culture.

Thats exactly what my guru used to say however who was Indonesian although I would suspect that there would not be full agreement even among Indonesians as to what a keris is.

[A. G. Maisey]

Of course.

Keris culture is based upon a number of belief systems.

All of the great belief systems, all of the great philosophies, are based upon belief systems.

Do all of the followers of those great religions and great philosophies hold exactly the same views?

[Pusaka]

I think however there are many of the older Indonesians who will not consider a keris maker an empu unless he can give life to a blade, now the method that is followed to do that might have changed. I would imagine a Muslim would use prayers whilst a Hindu would use mantras, fasting and offerings might be carried out by both. "finger tuning" well I guess there is something to that also.

[David]

Originally Posted by Pusaka

I think however there are many of the older Indonesians who will not consider a keris maker an empu unless he can give life to a blade, now the method that is followed to do that might have changed.

Pusaka, are you operating under the impression that only an empu can create a "real" keris. If so you have eliminated a great deal of antique keris from the "real keris" category.

[Pusaka]

Originally Posted by David

Pusaka, are you operating under the impression that only an empu can create a "real" keris. If so you have eliminated a great deal of antique keris from the "real keris" category.

It is impossible to look at an ancient keris and know if the person who made it was an empu or not purely based on physical appearance. The technique to enliven a blade in its details is or was within a few family's and they dont hand that information freely out. Therefor without that knowledge (precise knowledge of the mantras etc) you cannot produce a living blade. You can produce a beautifully looking blade but you cant fill it ie it is a keris mati (a dead keris).

The question is what happens if you change religion can you still practice that ritual or do you have to change it?

There are legends in various silat schools about who the first empu was and who he inherited this knowledge from.