Ottoman matchlock examples.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

These images were from an Italian auction house earlier this year;
Not a matchlock, but worth looking at!

Pukka, I noticed that recently many Ottoman flintlocks have been for sale, beautiful ones like the one you posted, but it is next to imposible to find a decent matchlock image, here is another one, 16th century, Askeri Muzesi, Istanbul, Turkey.

[estcrh]

Topkapı Palace Museum.

[Pukka Bundook]

Eric,

It could very well be that the above arms with miquelet type locks could have been converted from matchlock.
It would really take very little effort, and with a new panel of decoration where the serpentine came through the stock, would not really show at all.

Another thing I am thinking about, is the Omani matchlocks we see with very fine early barrels, (17th C and a bit later)
We know these were not made in Oman, so, were they re-purposed Ottoman or Persian barrels, salvaged and re-used in later years?
I believe these barrels were Persian, but if so, Did Ottoman recycled arms meet the same fate? (Of being stripped down & barrels sent to another country for re-use? (Could explain the lack of original Ottoman examples.....)

What thinkest thou?

Richard.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

Eric,

It could very well be that the above arms with miquelet type locks could have been converted from matchlock.
It would really take very little effort, and with a new panel of decoration where the serpentine came through the stock, would not really show at all.

Another thing I am thinking about, is the Omani matchlocks we see with very fine early barrels, (17th C and a bit later)
We know these were not made in Oman, so, were they re-purposed Ottoman or Persian barrels, salvaged and re-used in later years?
I believe these barrels were Persian, but if so, Did Ottoman recycled arms meet the same fate? (Of being stripped down & barrels sent to another country for re-use? (Could explain the lack of original Ottoman examples.....)

What thinkest thou?

Richard.

Richard, some very good questions, were the Ottomans so efficient in repurposing the matchlocks that we are left with a handful today. It was probably the barrel that was the hardest and most expensive part to produce, there was probably a value in them from other cultures even when they were outdated at home. I can not remember even seeing a Persian matchlock, the flintlocks are quite rare as well, there must have been many at one time, they seen to have disappeared to.

This image supposedly shows how those beautiful barrels were produced.

[Pukka Bundook]

Eric,

Yes, this is the later "Damascus" style twist.
The earlier types were a stub -iron twist, as shown below;

Richard.
Manouchehr M. has some wonderful photos of Persian arms in his book when published, and some very nice photos in his series on Persian arms in Classic Arms Magazine.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

Eric,

Yes, this is the later "Damascus" style twist.
The earlier types were a stub -iron twist, as shown below;

Richard.
Manouchehr M. has some wonderful photos of Persian arms in his book when published, and some very nice photos in his series on Persian arms in Classic Arms Magazine.

Richard, here or some detailed examples from the images I posted of Ottoman matchlocks that seem to be of this type or am I wrong.

[Pukka Bundook]

Not wrong Eric,
These are beautiful examples of what we in the west would call a stub twist.

(stub twist, as the preferred material was old iron horseshoe nail stubs)

I have a few old guns with "Twisted stubs" or "Stub twist" stamped on the under-side.

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

Eric,

It could very well be that the above arms with miquelet type locks could have been converted from matchlock.

Another thing I am thinking about, is the Omani matchlocks we see with very fine early barrels, (17th C and a bit later)
We know these were not made in Oman, so, were they re-purposed Ottoman or Persian barrels, salvaged and re-used in later years?

Richard.

I have the same feeling...
Kubur

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

Eric,

It could very well be that the above arms with miquelet type locks could have been converted from matchlock.
It would really take very little effort, and with a new panel of decoration where the serpentine came through the stock, would not really show at all.


Richard.

Here are two Ottoman matchlocks next to a miquelet for comparison, what do you think.

[Pukka Bundook]

I think the miquelet started out as a matchlock nearly for sure, with the very similar styling.
There is no reason for a miquelet stock to angle behind the breech as does this example, (and the others above) The only thing to cause this, is fashion of former arms, (matchlock) Or,....conversion from said matchlock.

Do nice old matchlock barrels turn up in other places besides Oman? (apart from a few in India that are not the usual Indian/Indo /Persian work)

Richard.
Edited to say these are probably the nicest Ottoman barrels I have ever seen. Thanks for posting them.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

I think the miquelet started out as a matchlock nearly for sure, with the very similar styling.
There is no reason for a miquelet stock to angle behind the breech as does this example, (and the others above) The only thing to cause this, is fashion of former arms, (matchlock) Or,....conversion from said matchlock.

Do nice old matchlock barrels turn up in other places besides Oman? (apart from a few in India that are not the usual Indian/Indo /Persian work)

Richard.
Edited to say these are probably the nicest Ottoman barrels I have ever seen. Thanks for posting them.

If anyone has an example of what they think may be an Ottoman barrel on a non Ottoman stock please post it.

Richard, I have to give the Museumslandschaft Hessen Kassel credit for posting these high resolution photographs from their collection. They have eleven Ottoman examples with three being matchlocks. Here are top views of all eleven for comparison. These guns never turned up in a goofle search due to being described as Luntenschlossgewehr and Schnapphahngewehr.

[eftihis]

The first one looks a bit ottoman in design, what do you think? (the one with the goat hairy skin). The other looks like re-stocked ottoman barel?