Indian Swords with downward curving blades

mrcjgscott · 21st November 2015, 01:06 PM

Dear Miguel,

Firstly my apologies for coming to this thread so late, it obviously slipped under my radar!

Thank you for sharing your kukri's with us. The top one has been correctly identified, infact I saw one last month in quite a famous art collection, with the rest of the suite of arms which accompanied it dispersed around the villa housing the collection. The labels stated acquired in 1904.

Such stands of arms were a very fashionable accessory in well to do households of the time, and as well as the catalogue in Berkley's post, I have seen a similar advertisements in the UK.

The second example certainly means business, almost certainly for fighting rather than sacrifice, although it could accomplish that if required. I am most intrigued by the armoury stamp.

I have seen a few with similar markings, but they are not often found. Would it be possible to see a clearer image? I'll see if I can find any comparable examples.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miguel

Thought you might like to see some pics of a Kora I have.

Many thanks for showing us the Kora, probably one of the finest I have seen, and stunning when accompanied by that beautiful silver and quill work sheath.

I am yet to acquire a kora, despite having quite a few kukris, and you have certainly given me something to aspire to-thank you!

Kind regards,

Chris

Miguel · 23rd November 2015, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrcjgscott

Dear Miguel,

Firstly my apologies for coming to this thread so late, it obviously slipped under my radar!

Thank you for sharing your kukri's with us. The top one has been correctly identified, infact I saw one last month in quite a famous art collection, with the rest of the suite of arms which accompanied it dispersed around the villa housing the collection. The labels stated acquired in 1904.

Such stands of arms were a very fashionable accessory in well to do households of the time, and as well as the catalogue in Berkley's post, I have seen a similar advertisements in the UK.

The second example certainly means business, almost certainly for fighting rather than sacrifice, although it could accomplish that if required. I am most intrigued by the armoury stamp.

I have seen a few with similar markings, but they are not often found. Would it be possible to see a clearer image? I'll see if I can find any comparable examples.

Many thanks for showing us the Kora, probably one of the finest I have seen, and stunning when accompanied by that beautiful silver and quill work sheath.

I am yet to acquire a kora, despite having quite a few kukris, and you have certainly given me something to aspire to-thank you!

Kind regards,

Chris

Hello Chris,
Thank you for your interesting comments on the Kukris. Apology accepted, better late than never.

I have now obtained more than three quotes which fix the time period and use for the wide decorated Kukri and am well satisfied. Not quite so with the plain one although I pretty certain that it's name is a Kukri with a Talwar hilt as obvious as that. A friend of my youngest son owns a business in Katmandu and researching Nepali weapons is one of the services he offers. This person has advised that the blade stamp is 99 per cent Afghanistan and that a number of these blades were produced in the late 18th early 19thC. He pointed out that the Gurkhas were in the North West Frontier for well over 100 years and also in Afghanistan. A contingent apparently as guards for the British installed Sultan. It will be very interesting if your enquiries could confirm this. There is a problem
, however, as my PC decided to stop working yesterday so it will be a while before I will be able to provide you with a clearer image of the blade stamp as I will have to have it repaired or worse purchase a new one. I am sending this reply from my iPad but I can't send photos as systems are not compatible.

Your comments on my Kora were most appreciated.
Regards
Miguel

mrcjgscott · 24th November 2015, 11:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miguel

Hello Chris,
Thank you for your interesting comments on the Kukris. Apology accepted, better late than never.

I have now obtained more than three quotes which fix the time period and use for the wide decorated Kukri and am well satisfied. Not quite so with the plain one although I pretty certain that it's name is a Kukri with a Talwar hilt as obvious as that. A friend of my youngest son owns a business in Katmandu and researching Nepali weapons is one of the services he offers. This person has advised that the blade stamp is 99 per cent Afghanistan and that a number of these blades were produced in the late 18th early 19thC. He pointed out that the Gurkhas were in the North West Frontier for well over 100 years and also in Afghanistan. A contingent apparently as guards for the British installed Sultan. It will be very interesting if your enquiries could confirm this. There is a problem
, however, as my PC decided to stop working yesterday so it will be a while before I will be able to provide you with a clearer image of the blade stamp as I will have to have it repaired or worse purchase a new one. I am sending this reply from my iPad but I can't send photos as systems are not compatible.

Your comments on my Kora were most appreciated.
Regards
Miguel

Thanks for getting back to me Miguel,

I am sorry to hear of your misfortune with your PC, I hope you can rectify the problem quickly and with the minimum of hassle and financial outlay!

Afghanistan is certainly a possibility for the plainer of your two kukris, although I wouldn't rule it out as being Indian in origin also. I would also revise the age estimate given by your son's friend to mid to late 19th century.

I will start a hunt for the stamp as soon as I return home later this week, and shall let you know if I find any further information.

With kind regards,

Chris

ariel · 25th November 2015, 03:06 AM

Yes, there are kukris clearly marked with what we conveniently call " Mazar-i-Sharif" stamp. Likely, just a stamp of government property. They are from the very end of the 19th century, perhaps even beginning of the 20th.

estcrh · 25th November 2015, 07:32 AM

Miguel, nice examples, thanks for sharing your pictures.

Miguel · 2nd December 2015, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by estcrh

Miguel, nice examples, thanks for sharing your pictures.

My pleasure and thanks for grouping them together, it makes it easier to compare both sides at the same time.
Miguel

Miguel · 27th November 2015, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Yes, there are kukris clearly marked with what we conveniently call " Mazar-i-Sharif" stamp. Likely, just a stamp of government property. They are from the very end of the 19th century, perhaps even beginning of the 20th.

Hi Ariel,
Thanks for the info, I never gave Afghanistan a thought with regard to this type of weapon. I am learning something new all the time on this forum.
Regards
Miguel

mrcjgscott · 28th November 2015, 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Yes, there are kukris clearly marked with what we conveniently call " Mazar-i-Sharif" stamp. Likely, just a stamp of government property. They are from the very end of the 19th century, perhaps even beginning of the 20th.

Hello Ariel,

Here is one of my examples of such a stamp. All the ones I have seen on kukris date from the early to mind 1890's.

Kind regards,

Chris

Jens Nordlunde · 29th November 2015, 04:34 PM

Miguel,
I promissed to show you the kukri formed daggers/swords from the south, and here they are.
http://www.frontline.in/static/html/...4251306500.htm

mrcjgscott · 29th November 2015, 09:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Miguel,
I promissed to show you the kukri formed daggers/swords from the south, and here they are.
http://www.frontline.in/static/html/...4251306500.htm

Very interesting Jens, thank you!

Miguel · 2nd December 2015, 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Miguel,
I promissed to show you the kukri formed daggers/swords from the south, and here they are.
http://www.frontline.in/static/html/...4251306500.htm

Hi Jens,

Thank you for such an interesting article it certainly makes you think. The history of India is fascinating and extremely complex and just as you think that you have found an answer you discover something else which takes you off on a different track.

I am fairly sure in my own mind that the Kukri form originated from India.
Miguel

Miguel · 2nd December 2015, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrcjgscott

Hello Ariel,

Here is one of my examples of such a stamp. All the ones I have seen on kukris date from the early to mind 1890's.

Kind regards,

Chris

Hello Chris,

Interesting stamp but nothing like mine which, if all such stamps are similar to yours,makes me lean more towards India than Afghanistan.
Regards
Miguel

Miguel · 27th November 2015, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrcjgscott

Thanks for getting back to me Miguel,

I am sorry to hear of your misfortune with your PC, I hope you can rectify the problem quickly and with the minimum of hassle and financial outlay!

Afghanistan is certainly a possibility for the plainer of your two kukris, although I wouldn't rule it out as being Indian in origin also. I would also revise the age estimate given by your son's friend to mid to late 19th century.

I will start a hunt for the stamp as soon as I return home later this week, and shall let you know if I find any further information.

With kind regards,

Chris

Hello Chris,

I tend to agree wit you regarding the age. My original thoughts were that the origin was Indian I never gave Afghanistan a thought but it seems that there may be a likely hood that it could have been made there so at the moment the jury is still out on this one but I am hoping that you may confirm it one way or the other. I very much appreciate your input.

My PC is with the repairers and I am not expecting to have it returned for at least another week. All the signs indicate that the main processor has failed, just hope the hard drive is OK.
Regards
Miguel

Miguel · 10th December 2015, 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miguel

Hello Chris,
Thank you for your interesting comments on the Kukris. Apology accepted, better late than never.

I have now obtained more than three quotes which fix the time period and use for the wide decorated Kukri and am well satisfied. Not quite so with the plain one although I pretty certain that it's name is a Kukri with a Talwar hilt as obvious as that. A friend of my youngest son owns a business in Katmandu and researching Nepali weapons is one of the services he offers. This person has advised that the blade stamp is 99 per cent Afghanistan and that a number of these blades were produced in the late 18th early 19thC. He pointed out that the Gurkhas were in the North West Frontier for well over 100 years and also in Afghanistan. A contingent apparently as guards for the British installed Sultan. It will be very interesting if your enquiries could confirm this. There is a problem
, however, as my PC decided to stop working yesterday so it will be a while before I will be able to provide you with a clearer image of the blade stamp as I will have to have it repaired or worse purchase a new one. I am sending this reply from my iPad but I can't send photos as systems are not compatible.

Your comments on my Kora were most appreciated.
Regards
Miguel

Hi Chris,
I now have my repaired PC back thank goodness. I have tried to get a better photo of the blade mark but without success, probably due to my ineptitude with the camera, sorry we will have to make do with the one weve already got.
Regards
Miguel

Jens Nordlunde · 10th December 2015, 10:23 PM

Miguel,
I have read about it not so long ago, so I may be able to find out where I read it. Maybe one of my books will help me. When I find out I will let you know.
Jens

mrcjgscott · 10th December 2015, 11:02 PM

This has developed into a very interesting thread, thank you all!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miguel

Hi Chris,
I now have my repaired PC back thank goodness. I have tried to get a better photo of the blade mark but without success, probably due to my ineptitude with the camera, sorry we will have to make do with the one weve already got.
Regards
Miguel

Not to worry Miguel,

Pleased to hear your PC has made a full recovery.

I will try to enhance the image we already have and work from that. My search continues, when time allows!

Best wishes,

Chris

Jens Nordlunde · 11th December 2015, 05:58 PM

The Mahishamardini cave Temple it at the east coast of India - but you no doubt know that. Coorg is, as you know, on the west coast of India, so the two places are very far apart.
The weapon shown by Elgood could be related to the adya katti, but it seems to be closer related at the kukri. How?
I think the answer will found be in studying the early Indian history of this area.

Miguel · 13th December 2015, 03:42 PM

Hi Jens, Thank you for the information. I agree that the weapon on the carving looks more like the Khukri than the Ayda Katti but to me there is some resemblance between the two, anyway I take your point and will carry on with my research.

Hi Chris, Thanks for the reply and hope you can discover more about the stamp.
Kind regards
Miguel

Jens Nordlunde · 13th December 2015, 05:28 PM

Miguel,
I dont know if you have Elgood's book Hindu Arms and Ritual, but on page 234 under Ayudha katti he writes. " Used all over Tamil Nadu and Sri Lanka where they continue to have an agricultural use."
It is the first time I have seen this, and unfortunately Elgood doesn't write when that was.
The mentioning of Sri Lanka is interresting, as the dwarf with the 'kukri' is from the east coast of India and 7th century - and this leads me to recommend the following book.
Majumdar, R. C.:Suvarnadvipa – Hindu Colonies of the Far East. Vol. I-II. 1937. Cosmo Publications, reprint 2004.
It is the story about how the Indian Hindu princes colonised the countries to the east of India between the 8th and 11th century.

I wish you good luck with your reseach

25th November 2015, 07:32 AM	#5
estcrh Member Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: USA Posts: 1,492	Miguel, nice examples, thanks for sharing your pictures. Attached Images

25th November 2015, 03:06 AM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Yes, there are kukris clearly marked with what we conveniently call " Mazar-i-Sharif" stamp. Likely, just a stamp of government property. They are from the very end of the 19th century, perhaps even beginning of the 20th.

29th November 2015, 04:34 PM	#9
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Miguel, I promissed to show you the kukri formed daggers/swords from the south, and here they are. http://www.frontline.in/static/html/...4251306500.htm

10th December 2015, 10:23 PM	#15
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Miguel, I have read about it not so long ago, so I may be able to find out where I read it. Maybe one of my books will help me. When I find out I will let you know. Jens

11th December 2015, 05:58 PM	#17
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	The Mahishamardini cave Temple it at the east coast of India - but you no doubt know that. Coorg is, as you know, on the west coast of India, so the two places are very far apart. The weapon shown by Elgood could be related to the adya katti, but it seems to be closer related at the kukri. How? I think the answer will found be in studying the early Indian history of this area.

13th December 2015, 03:42 PM	#18
Miguel Member Join Date: Jun 2015 Posts: 584	Hi Jens, Thank you for the information. I agree that the weapon on the carving looks more like the Khukri than the Ayda Katti but to me there is some resemblance between the two, anyway I take your point and will carry on with my research. Hi Chris, Thanks for the reply and hope you can discover more about the stamp. Kind regards Miguel

13th December 2015, 05:28 PM	#19
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Miguel, I dont know if you have Elgood's book Hindu Arms and Ritual, but on page 234 under Ayudha katti he writes. " Used all over Tamil Nadu and Sri Lanka where they continue to have an agricultural use." It is the first time I have seen this, and unfortunately Elgood doesn't write when that was. The mentioning of Sri Lanka is interresting, as the dwarf with the 'kukri' is from the east coast of India and 7th century - and this leads me to recommend the following book. Majumdar, R. C.:Suvarnadvipa – Hindu Colonies of the Far East. Vol. I-II. 1937. Cosmo Publications, reprint 2004. It is the story about how the Indian Hindu princes colonised the countries to the east of India between the 8th and 11th century. I wish you good luck with your reseach