Long Keris

RobertGuy · 16th November 2015, 10:52 AM

Thank you all very much for your help. My usual area of collecting is European military swords so getting my head around the terms and terminology of these blades is a steep learning curve. In terms of adding a selut would this keris normally have had one? Is this the same thing as a mendak? Do these require an expert to fit them? Presumably the blade needs to be removed and then refitted. Is this easy? The sabbard repair I will probably leave as is. I would rather have a piece that shows its history that over restore it and take away its charater.
Thanks again.

asomotif · 24th March 2016, 10:45 PM

Hello Robert,

Did you find a selut already ?

Best regards,
Willem

A. G. Maisey · 25th March 2016, 12:06 AM

This comment relates only to pamor

Giovanni, you have expressed this opinion:-

"I personally believe that the pamor is more frequently found on recent made blades,probably to increase the appeal"

One of the attributes of the keris is that it is a work of art. This applies most especially to the Javanese keris. Many people in the Javanese art community hold the opinion that the keris is the highest expression of Javanese plastic art.

So, in respect of keris in the current era, the opinion you have expressed is a valid one, very much so when we consider the extremely complex examples of pattern welding that can be found in many current era keris. The very finest pamor motifs that have ever been produced are being produced right now. Going several hundred years into the past, not even a ruler would have had the opportunity to own a keris with a complex pamor that equalled what we can obtain today.

However, pamor itself has existed in the keris since at least the Late Eastern Javanese Period, say from at least the time of Majapahit.
It very probably developed from the necessity to extend imported high quality ferric material with locally produced lower quality ferric material, by welding the two different materials together in the forge.

Following the rise of Islam in Jawa there was an influx of people from the Middle East, and especially from India, and amongst these people there were numbers of metal workers, who brought their forge skills with them. During this period of Jawa's development we saw the development of complex pamor motifs, that were accompanied by their own talismanic values.

In the Ying Yai Sheng Lan (1416) we find this:-

"--- The men have a pu-lak stuck in their girdle, everybody carrying such a weapon, from the child of three years up to the oldest man; these daggers have very thin stripes and whitish flowers and are made of the very best steel, the handle is of
gold, rhinoceros horn or ivory, cut into the shape of human or devils faces and finished very carefully.---"

Scholars have interpreted this as evidence of the existence of pamor, and of keris, from at least the early 15th. century.

So --- pamor in keris has been around for quite a while.

David · 25th March 2016, 12:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

However, pamor itself has existed in the keris since at least the Late Eastern Javanese Period, say from at least the time of Majapahit.
It very probably developed from the necessity to extend imported high quality ferric material with locally produced lower quality ferric material, by welding the two different materials together in the forge.

Hi Alan. What you have written is obviously true, however, when Gio wrote "I personally believe that the pamor is more frequently found on recent made blades,probably to increase the appeal" i believe he was speaking specifically of keris panjang, not the keris in general. If so i think i would have to agree with his assessment. Earlier keris panjang tend to have no pamor. When i do see pamor on this particular form of keris it is generally of there post-WWII variety.

RobertGuy · 25th March 2016, 12:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asomotif

Hello Robert,

Did you find a selut already ?

Best regards,
Willem

Willem
No, not yet and I'm a little unsure how to fit one.

Rick · 25th March 2016, 01:13 AM

Try to estimate accurately the diameter of the bulge on the base of the hilt; that will determine the size of the cup needed.

Then put a wanted ad in Keris Swap.

A. G. Maisey · 25th March 2016, 01:31 AM

Yes David, I agree that Giovanni was probably talking about KP's, or maybe even more generally, keris from the same geographic area, however, although you and I and other very experienced people may understand this, there are many people who read this Forum who are not particularly well experienced, and without specific reference a general statement such as Giovanni's, could mislead them.

Moreover, although we are accustomed to seeing KP's without pamor, older examples with very simple pamor do exist. I currently own several, and have had others in the past.

What is true is this:- if the pamor in a KP is complex, you can bet on it that it is post 1980.

GIO · 25th March 2016, 11:27 AM

Hi Alan and David,
yes, I was referring to Panjang type of keris. Sorry for not having well specified that. Moreover I only expessed an opinion since in this part of the world we do not have many chances to examine many specimens and form a valid experience. Interesting what Alan says about old Panjang kerises with pamor. The information adds to our knowledge and demonstrates how complex the world of keris is.

Sajen · 25th March 2016, 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GIO

Interesting what Alan says about old Panjang kerises with pamor. The information adds to our knowledge and demonstrates how complex the world of keris is.

Hello GIO,

in this thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=panjang you can see my clearly antique keris panjang with pamor blade.

Regards,
Detlef

asomotif · 25th March 2016, 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobertGuy

Willem
No, not yet and I'm a little unsure how to fit one.

Hello Robert,

have you been able to remove the hilt ?

Besided the diameter of the bulge of th ehilt, the diameter of the peksi would be helpfull. + maybe the space between hilt and ganja.

Best regards,

Willem

RobertGuy · 26th March 2016, 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asomotif

Hello Robert,

have you been able to remove the hilt ?

Besided the diameter of the bulge of th ehilt, the diameter of the peksi would be helpfull. + maybe the space between hilt and ganja.

Best regards,

Willem

No, not yet. I have posted full measurements on the swap forum though.
What is the best way of removing the hilt? Is it best to heat things, like with a hair dryer?

David · 26th March 2016, 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobertGuy

What is the best way of removing the hilt? Is it best to heat things, like with a hair dryer?

Is the hilt firmly fixed Robert, or is there play when you wiggle it?

RobertGuy · 26th March 2016, 06:52 PM

David
It's rock solid.

16th November 2015, 10:52 AM	#1
RobertGuy Member Join Date: Aug 2015 Posts: 135	Thank you all very much for your help. My usual area of collecting is European military swords so getting my head around the terms and terminology of these blades is a steep learning curve. In terms of adding a selut would this keris normally have had one? Is this the same thing as a mendak? Do these require an expert to fit them? Presumably the blade needs to be removed and then refitted. Is this easy? The sabbard repair I will probably leave as is. I would rather have a piece that shows its history that over restore it and take away its charater. Thanks again.

24th March 2016, 10:45 PM	#2
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,228	Hello Robert, Did you find a selut already ? Best regards, Willem

25th March 2016, 12:06 AM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	This comment relates only to pamor Giovanni, you have expressed this opinion:- "I personally believe that the pamor is more frequently found on recent made blades,probably to increase the appeal" One of the attributes of the keris is that it is a work of art. This applies most especially to the Javanese keris. Many people in the Javanese art community hold the opinion that the keris is the highest expression of Javanese plastic art. So, in respect of keris in the current era, the opinion you have expressed is a valid one, very much so when we consider the extremely complex examples of pattern welding that can be found in many current era keris. The very finest pamor motifs that have ever been produced are being produced right now. Going several hundred years into the past, not even a ruler would have had the opportunity to own a keris with a complex pamor that equalled what we can obtain today. However, pamor itself has existed in the keris since at least the Late Eastern Javanese Period, say from at least the time of Majapahit. It very probably developed from the necessity to extend imported high quality ferric material with locally produced lower quality ferric material, by welding the two different materials together in the forge. Following the rise of Islam in Jawa there was an influx of people from the Middle East, and especially from India, and amongst these people there were numbers of metal workers, who brought their forge skills with them. During this period of Jawa's development we saw the development of complex pamor motifs, that were accompanied by their own talismanic values. In the Ying Yai Sheng Lan (1416) we find this:- "--- The men have a pu-lak stuck in their girdle, everybody carrying such a weapon, from the child of three years up to the oldest man; these daggers have very thin stripes and whitish flowers and are made of the very best steel, the handle is of gold, rhinoceros horn or ivory, cut into the shape of human or devils faces and finished very carefully.---" Scholars have interpreted this as evidence of the existence of pamor, and of keris, from at least the early 15th. century. So --- pamor in keris has been around for quite a while.

25th March 2016, 01:13 AM	#6
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	Try to estimate accurately the diameter of the bulge on the base of the hilt; that will determine the size of the cup needed. Then put a wanted ad in Keris Swap.

25th March 2016, 01:31 AM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Yes David, I agree that Giovanni was probably talking about KP's, or maybe even more generally, keris from the same geographic area, however, although you and I and other very experienced people may understand this, there are many people who read this Forum who are not particularly well experienced, and without specific reference a general statement such as Giovanni's, could mislead them. Moreover, although we are accustomed to seeing KP's without pamor, older examples with very simple pamor do exist. I currently own several, and have had others in the past. What is true is this:- if the pamor in a KP is complex, you can bet on it that it is post 1980.

25th March 2016, 11:27 AM	#8
GIO Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 328	Hi Alan and David, yes, I was referring to Panjang type of keris. Sorry for not having well specified that. Moreover I only expessed an opinion since in this part of the world we do not have many chances to examine many specimens and form a valid experience. Interesting what Alan says about old Panjang kerises with pamor. The information adds to our knowledge and demonstrates how complex the world of keris is.

26th March 2016, 06:52 PM	#13
RobertGuy Member Join Date: Aug 2015 Posts: 135	David It's rock solid.