Keris Madura with Thai influences

A. G. Maisey · 9th November 2015, 11:17 AM

Max, I don't know what book you've presented a photo from, but I rather feel that the person who named that hilt form "temenggungan" is a little out of his depth.

The correct name is actually "tumenggungan", this name does not come from any flower of anything, rather it comes from the word "tumenggung", which is a part of a bupati's title. A bupati is a regent, who is responsible for the administration of a kabupaten, which is a semi-autonomous administrative district. In the old days the position of a bupati tended to pass from father to son, so the family became something like minor nobility.

The spelling "temenggungan" is a corruption which follows a local pronunciation.

The name "tumenggungan" indicates that this form of hilt would be suitable for wear by a tumenggung. The way in which the title is used is, for example, "Bupati Tumenggung Surodiningrat".

Incidentally, I probably should not be so positive as to say that this is the correct name, I probably should say that some people believe it to be the correct name.

Edit --- A further note:-

I just mentioned to an educated native speaker of Javanese the idea that the word "temu" is the name of the ginger flower, I had never heard this usage..

He laughed out loud, and commented that whoever thought that the word "temu" referred to a flower was clearly looking at the wrong end of the ginger plant.

It seems that "temu" is the word used to refer to spices that come from the root of a plant, as does ginger when used as a spice.

I did not know this, I think only a native speaker would know it.

The information in this photo caption is just about as wrong as it can be.

Paul de Souza · 9th November 2015, 03:39 PM

An old post by Dave Henkel from 2002. Gosh how time flies. How the mind fossilises. I have forgotten so much.

http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000918.html

David · 9th November 2015, 04:50 PM

Hey Paul, it's nice to see that you are still lurking about these parts. Hope you are well.

Paul de Souza · 9th November 2015, 05:09 PM

Hi David. Yah. Am well. Been lurking about. Lots to catch up with. Hope u are well too.

David · 9th November 2015, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul de Souza

Hi David. Yah. Am well. Been lurking about. Lots to catch up with. Hope u are well too.

Good to hear. You do realize that your last post here was something like 9 years ago.

Hope you stick around. Your old website on keris was one of my very first sources for information so many years ago.

Alam Shah · 22nd December 2015, 04:24 AM

Hi all,
The blade looks like a Carita form probably from Pattani. The hilt, I concur with those whom attribute its origin to Madura. The hilt cup, needs replacement whichever that you intend to use. The sheath is a Pattani styled "sari bulan" (crescent moon).

I do have a proper example of this Northern Malay Peninsular ensemble (see attached).

9th November 2015, 11:17 AM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Max, I don't know what book you've presented a photo from, but I rather feel that the person who named that hilt form "temenggungan" is a little out of his depth. The correct name is actually "tumenggungan", this name does not come from any flower of anything, rather it comes from the word "tumenggung", which is a part of a bupati's title. A bupati is a regent, who is responsible for the administration of a kabupaten, which is a semi-autonomous administrative district. In the old days the position of a bupati tended to pass from father to son, so the family became something like minor nobility. The spelling "temenggungan" is a corruption which follows a local pronunciation. The name "tumenggungan" indicates that this form of hilt would be suitable for wear by a tumenggung. The way in which the title is used is, for example, "Bupati Tumenggung Surodiningrat". Incidentally, I probably should not be so positive as to say that this is the correct name, I probably should say that some people believe it to be the correct name. Edit --- A further note:- I just mentioned to an educated native speaker of Javanese the idea that the word "temu" is the name of the ginger flower, I had never heard this usage.. He laughed out loud, and commented that whoever thought that the word "temu" referred to a flower was clearly looking at the wrong end of the ginger plant. It seems that "temu" is the word used to refer to spices that come from the root of a plant, as does ginger when used as a spice. I did not know this, I think only a native speaker would know it. The information in this photo caption is just about as wrong as it can be. Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 9th November 2015 at 11:43 AM. Reason: additional information

9th November 2015, 03:39 PM	#2
Paul de Souza Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 66	Keris Sari Bulan An old post by Dave Henkel from 2002. Gosh how time flies. How the mind fossilises. I have forgotten so much. http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000918.html

22nd December 2015, 04:24 AM	#6
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	Keris Carita Pattani Hi all, The blade looks like a Carita form probably from Pattani. The hilt, I concur with those whom attribute its origin to Madura. The hilt cup, needs replacement whichever that you intend to use. The sheath is a Pattani styled "sari bulan" (crescent moon). I do have a proper example of this Northern Malay Peninsular ensemble (see attached). Attached Images

9th November 2015, 04:50 PM	#3
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	Hey Paul, it's nice to see that you are still lurking about these parts. Hope you are well.

9th November 2015, 05:09 PM	#4
Paul de Souza Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 66	Hi David. Yah. Am well. Been lurking about. Lots to catch up with. Hope u are well too.