Flintlock Pair, Need help Identifying

[rickystl]

Originally Posted by Andreas

Hello,
The barrels are certainly French, the crowned AM is a St Etienne proof mark, and the name JEAN BROSARS appears in several examples, ca 1810.
Andreas

Now that is interesting. Thank you Andreas!!
Rick.

[Chertbolt]

Hello,
The barrels are certainly French, the crowned AM is a St Etienne proof mark, and the name JEAN BROSARS appears in several examples, ca 1810.
Andreas

I agree with Rick. Very Interesting! I had searched for the proof mark but could not find it referenced anywhere. I am still learning!

Would you mind sharing where you have seen this proof mark documented?

I am also very interested in knowing more about Jean Brosars and where you have seen other examples baring his name. Any information would be of great help. My mother is an experienced genealogical researcher and is working on this name as well as the Arabic inscription of 'George Abraham' to try and find more information.

She did find a Syrian man by the name of George Abraham that lived 20 minutes away from the earliest known owner of these pistols, whom would be my uncles father. Though we have not found any solid connections to say for certain that this is the same George Abraham.

Will update as we find more information.

For now here are some more pictures.

[Andreas]

Originally Posted by Chertbolt

I agree with Rick. Very Interesting! I had searched for the proof mark but could not find it referenced anywhere. I am still learning!
Would you mind sharing where you have seen this proof mark documented?

This crown is characteristic of the Saint Etienne proof bench. The AM is attributed to Auguste Merley, controller for civilian weapons (retired 1810). Please see here

http://www.passionmilitaria.com/t91622-vos-avis-sur-differents-pistolets-anciens

and here

http://www.passionmilitaria.com/t63478-restauration-pistolet-1er-empire

, also for images of Brosars barrels.
Andreas

[Ian]

Thank you Andreas. Excellent sources and directly relevant to the items under discussion. Chertbolt now has an answer to his question as to where these were made and by whom. As he correctly noted in his original post, any discussion of the value of his pistols needs to be via email or PM.

Ian.

[Pukka Bundook]

Ian,

I think Chertbolt has an answer to where the barrels and locks were produced, but still believe these pistols were made and certainly engraved in the Near East.
They are very good for that area, but without wishing anyone to think I am finding fault with them, the finish and engraving is not up to even middling French standards.
I find it very difficult to believe that a French gunsmith could work down to this level of workmanship.
Please do not take this as a derogatory remark. I really Do believe that these are Good quality, better by far than average for that area of the world.

[Ian]

Good point Pukka.

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

Ian,

I think Chertbolt has an answer to where the barrels and locks were produced, but still believe these pistols were made and certainly engraved in the Near East.
They are very good for that area, but without wishing anyone to think I am finding fault with them, the finish and engraving is not up to even middling French standards.
I find it very difficult to believe that a French gunsmith could work down to this level of workmanship.
Please do not take this as a derogatory remark. I really Do believe that these are Good quality, better by far than average for that area of the world.

[rickystl]

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

Ian,

I think Chertbolt has an answer to where the barrels and locks were produced, but still believe these pistols were made and certainly engraved in the Near East.
They are very good for that area, but without wishing anyone to think I am finding fault with them, the finish and engraving is not up to even middling French standards.
I find it very difficult to believe that a French gunsmith could work down to this level of workmanship.
Please do not take this as a derogatory remark. I really Do believe that these are Good quality, better by far than average for that area of the world.

Hi Pukka.
Well, it's interesting what a few more photos can do to the decision making process. LOL. I must say that after viewing these additional photos, that I comepletely agree with your assessment. It does in fact appear that the lock and barrel were shipped from France/Europe for final assembly somewhere in the Balkans/Ottoman Empire. As you mention, the chisel work, engraving, quality of the iron mounts, and even the inletting is not up to European standards. But is typical of what you would see on these pistols if locally assembled. Great observations on your part.
However, yes, this pair of pistols are a really nice example of the locally made Kubur pistols utilizing a European lock and barrel.
It's great that Andreas was able to identify the barrels. Thiss has been a fun Thread.
Rick.

[Pukka Bundook]

Hi Rick,

What threw me a bit, is that I only knew of the newer St Etienne proofs, which are AR crowned.....not AM. Thanks to Andreas for filling me in on this point!
Lovely to get pistols with such high quality locks. Very nice indeed.

[Chertbolt]

Andreas, thank you for those links! It was fun to see other examples with the Brosar name and even the same proof mark!

I did find this online book that mentions Auguste Merley, Though I do not read French so I'm not exactly sure what it says about him.

I also discovered the Saint Etienne proof house is still in operation.
Saint Etienne Website

Thank you again to all that have contributed to this thread!

Originally Posted by Andreas

This crown is characteristic of the Saint Etienne proof bench. The AM is attributed to Auguste Merley, controller for civilian weapons (retired 1810). Please see here

http://www.passionmilitaria.com/t91622-vos-avis-sur-differents-pistolets-anciens

and here

http://www.passionmilitaria.com/t63478-restauration-pistolet-1er-empire

, also for images of Brosars barrels.
Andreas