Are these Bidri?

[harrywagner]

Here is what the recent Idian daggers look like. It is a completely different animal.

[ALEX]

Yes they are different of course, but there was reason when I mentioned: "the quality or technique has nothing to do with it". They are still of the same time period, perhaps +/- 10-20 years but that is irrelevant.

[harrywagner]

Originally Posted by ALEX

Yes they are different of course, but there was reason when I mentioned: "the quality or technique has nothing to do with it". They are still of the same time period, perhaps +/- 10-20 years but that is irrelevant.

Thanks Alex. You are, of course, free to think that. I disagree, but have no interest in arguing about it.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by harrywagner

Thanks Alex. You are, of course, free to think that. I disagree, but have no interest in arguing about it.

Hello Harrywagner,

I don't know much about Indian weapons nor I know about the technics but let me ask this question: Why you post it for discussion when you don't have an interest in arguing?

Regards,
Detlef

[harrywagner]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hello Harrywagner,

I don't know much about Indian weapons nor I know about the technics but let me ask this question: Why you post it for discussion when you don't have an interest in arguing?

Regards,
Detlef

Hello Detlef,
If I wanted to fight I would join the military. I'm interested in civil discussion, and in the opinions of experienced collectors. That doesn't mean I will believe everything I am told. This is especially true for items I own, that I can pick up, turn over and examine with magnification.

Harry

[RSWORD]

Do the scabbards have a wooden core or are they hollow? If they do have a wooden core would you mind taking a picture of it.

[harrywagner]

Originally Posted by RSWORD

Do the scabbards have a wooden core or are they hollow? If they do have a wooden core would you mind taking a picture of it.

They have wood cores, with a small bit of felt on top. It would be great if you can help us with this. Thanks.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by harrywagner

Hello Detlef,
If I wanted to fight I would join the military. I'm interested in civil discussion, and in the opinions of experienced collectors. That doesn't mean I will believe everything I am told. This is especially true for items I own, that I can pick up, turn over and examine with magnification.

Harry

Hello Harry,

I think you understand me wrong. I don't want to suggest a fight but a discussion. When you are certain with your opinion show why. I don't want to attack you with my post. But when I am positive about something I try to explain why.

Best regards,
Detlef

[ALEX]

Originally Posted by harrywagner

Thanks Alex. You are, of course, free to think that. I disagree, but have no interest in arguing about it.

Hi Harry,
It seems your version of "civil discussion" is to hear the "opinions of experienced collectors" only if it agrees with yours. You're seeking to confirm production date, but switching to comparing quality to leverage your point. Comparing quality is fundamental mistake when determining the age. it goes beyond that, and this is my point. In this example, there is no need to look further than the shiny clean velvet at the scabbards' throat. I am not even going to comment on the blade "looking like" wootz. You need to study the books, not the auction site, and get enough practical experience to know the difference.

[Gavin Nugent]

Without getting too involved in the age factor, I have specifically refrained from pointing anyone to any one commercial manufacturers site, but instead have provided the Google image search which outlines the type discussed if further delving wishes to be done.

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=i...X9QVb&dpr=1.75

Gavin

[harrywagner]

Thanks Gavin (and others). That is helpful. For the record. I am the one that asserted these were first half 20th, not the sellers. So I have no hard feeling if they are more recent, as has been suggested. My Polish friend sold me the one with the cat pommel. He dates that one to the 1990s. I honestly don't care. The age of an item is not that important to me. I am mostly interested in Islamic and Oriental bladed weapons and the basic design of many of these weapons has not changed in eons. For insurance purposes I will date the cat pommel to the 1990s and the other to the 70s.

I have to say that this entire discussion has left a sour taste in my mouth. This site is a great resource for collectors, but I will consider carefully before I post here again.

Sincerely,
Harry

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by harrywagner

I have to say that this entire discussion has left a sour taste in my mouth. This site is a great resource for collectors, but I will consider carefully before I post here again.

Sincerely,
Harry

Dear Harry,

I had the same problem in the past, with one or two objects.
Some comments were right, some were completely wrong.
It is a forum of connoisseurs, no more, but even specialists can be wrong.
Second point, why dissociate local users objects and travelers or tourists objects? Most of our objects are from the end of the 19th and beginning of the 20th c. There were few tourists and travellers, not like now.
It's clear that the craftmen who did these objects were very skilled and with a deep knowledge. They probably worked for both wealthy local elite and rich travellers. Or even the objects were produced to satisfy both local and travellers. No one can say! I just know that nowadays the techniques are lost or almost and objects for tourists are of a very low quality if not made in China!! My comments can be applied to daggers as Qajar axes and other objets from the end of the 19th c. The most important is your own feeling. It's not important if these daggers are from the mid-20th c.

Kind regards,
Kubur

[harrywagner]

Originally Posted by ALEX

Hi Harry,
It seems your version of "civil discussion" is to hear the "opinions of experienced collectors" only if it agrees with yours. You're seeking to confirm production date, but switching to comparing quality to leverage your point. Comparing quality is fundamental mistake when determining the age. it goes beyond that, and this is my point. In this example, there is no need to look further than the shiny clean velvet at the scabbards' throat. I am not even going to comment on the blade "looking like" wootz. You need to study the books, not the auction site, and get enough practical experience to know the difference.

Thank you Alex for reminding me why I don't join clubs, fraternities, etc. I have been on the fence about being a member of this site and your kind words have decided the question for me perfectly.

Admins - please cancel my account on this site. I am finished here. Thank you.

Sincerely,
Harry Wagner

[ALEX]

Harry, I am sorry you feel this way, but it is you who made a decision, not me. You're missing the point and taking it personally and this is not good way to learn.

[Kubur]

Alex I agree with you about litterature and books.
I dont agree with you about the term "to learn".
Harry is not a student and you are not a specialist and even if you or me were specialists. I don't like members who patronise new members. To be new members doesnt mean that they are new collectors, and even if they were, i dont think that is a problem.
Harry I don't feel that i belong to a club, i just share objects and knowledge with some very nice guys on this forum.
You shouldnt leave this forum.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by harrywagner

Thank you Alex for reminding me why I don't join clubs, fraternities, etc. I have been on the fence about being a member of this site and your kind words have decided the question for me perfectly.

Admins - please cancel my account on this site. I am finished here. Thank you.

Sincerely,
Harry Wagner

Dear Harry,

I really think that is the wrong way, sorry. Please don't leave this forum. So far I can judge it is Alex a member with a good knowledge about Indian weapons and he has only given his opinion about your both daggers. Show him why you disagree with his opinion.

Best regards,
Detlef

[Miguel]

Originally Posted by harrywagner

Thank you Alex for reminding me why I don't join clubs, fraternities, etc. I have been on the fence about being a member of this site and your kind words have decided the question for me perfectly.

Admins - please cancel my account on this site. I am finished here. Thank you.

Sincerely,
Harry Wagner

Hi Harry,
I have followed this thread with interest as I have a few pieces with similar decoration to yours and am amazed at how the discussion has ended. I really think that you have over reacted as there was nothing said by any of the participants, in my opinion, to provoke you into such a reaction. If it is not to late I would urge you to reconsider as I think by leaving the forum you will be the loser and for what?
Hoping that you will reconsider.
Miguel

[kahnjar1]

I have to agree with Miguel....nothing here to get uptight about...
Stu