Are these Bidri?

[harrywagner]

Thanks guys. I have seen some of the "vintage" work coming from India, and neither of these fit into that category. The one with the cat's head pommel has been in the posession of a Polish collector who I have bought from several times before. The other was part of an estate sale on Cape Cod. Supposedly it's previous owner bought it on a trip there in the 1930s. I believe it.

Battara, the silver work is damascene, or koftgari, if you prefer. Bidri is a technique used to blacken steel.

Kubur, you may be right about that not being Bidri, but the steel has definately been blackened in some way. The koftgari is quite good. It stands slightly proud on the both pieces, except for the band around the neck of the one with the cat's head pommel, which is not proud, but flush with the steel.

Harry

[ALEX]

Kubur is correct on both age and technique observations. These are recent decorative, aka tourist items.

The "blackening" in Bidri work is not related to dark/black background on coftgari. These are different techniques and methods.

Harry,
These daggers are exactly like those you referred to as "vintage work coming from India", and quality of coftgari or technique has nothing to do with it.
Do you believe they're 1930's based on previous owner's words alone or do you have at least one reputable reference to a similar item being described as such?

[harrywagner]

Originally Posted by ALEX

Kubur is correct on both age and technique observations. These are recent decorative, aka tourist items.

The "blackening" in Bidri work is not related to dark/black background on coftgari. These are different techniques and methods.

Harry,
These daggers are exactly like those you referred to as "vintage work coming from India", and quality of coftgari or technique has nothing to do with it.
Do you believe they're 1930's based on previous owner's words alone or do you have at least one reputable reference to a similar item being described as such?

Hi Alex,
Yes. I am asserting that these were both made first half 20th. I make this assertion based on having examined them, and quite a few of the more modern imitations.

Harry

[harrywagner]

Here is what the recent Idian daggers look like. It is a completely different animal.

[ALEX]

Yes they are different of course, but there was reason when I mentioned: "the quality or technique has nothing to do with it". They are still of the same time period, perhaps +/- 10-20 years but that is irrelevant.

[harrywagner]

Originally Posted by ALEX

Yes they are different of course, but there was reason when I mentioned: "the quality or technique has nothing to do with it". They are still of the same time period, perhaps +/- 10-20 years but that is irrelevant.

Thanks Alex. You are, of course, free to think that. I disagree, but have no interest in arguing about it.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by harrywagner

Thanks Alex. You are, of course, free to think that. I disagree, but have no interest in arguing about it.

Hello Harrywagner,

I don't know much about Indian weapons nor I know about the technics but let me ask this question: Why you post it for discussion when you don't have an interest in arguing?

Regards,
Detlef

[ALEX]

Originally Posted by harrywagner

Thanks Alex. You are, of course, free to think that. I disagree, but have no interest in arguing about it.

Hi Harry,
It seems your version of "civil discussion" is to hear the "opinions of experienced collectors" only if it agrees with yours. You're seeking to confirm production date, but switching to comparing quality to leverage your point. Comparing quality is fundamental mistake when determining the age. it goes beyond that, and this is my point. In this example, there is no need to look further than the shiny clean velvet at the scabbards' throat. I am not even going to comment on the blade "looking like" wootz. You need to study the books, not the auction site, and get enough practical experience to know the difference.