Are these Bidri?

Battara · 15th October 2015, 04:01 AM

First of all, these daggers both look like later work to me.

Secondly, I believe bidri work is a form of what is also called koftgari.

Kubur · 15th October 2015, 09:46 AM

Hi Harry,

Yes, they are very recent low Indian production. You have plenty on epray.
In the 1970ties they had big factories around Mombay, now they have some to the North too.

Bidri work is different from koftgari. What we can see here is a low quality koftgari: they apply silver decoration on cold metal. Mostly like a painting, normaly the koftgari should be stuck to etched metal.
In the bidri work, they cover the designs and parts that they want to let in silver. Normally covered with clay, then they put the piece in an oven. The non-protected parts will become black. The protected parts will be uncovered later and will stay bright shinny silver.
I hope that I'm understandable...

harrywagner · 15th October 2015, 01:18 PM

Thanks guys. I have seen some of the "vintage" work coming from India, and neither of these fit into that category. The one with the cat's head pommel has been in the posession of a Polish collector who I have bought from several times before. The other was part of an estate sale on Cape Cod. Supposedly it's previous owner bought it on a trip there in the 1930s. I believe it.

Battara, the silver work is damascene, or koftgari, if you prefer. Bidri is a technique used to blacken steel.

Kubur, you may be right about that not being Bidri, but the steel has definately been blackened in some way. The koftgari is quite good. It stands slightly proud on the both pieces, except for the band around the neck of the one with the cat's head pommel, which is not proud, but flush with the steel.

Harry

ALEX · 15th October 2015, 02:41 PM

Kubur is correct on both age and technique observations. These are recent decorative, aka tourist items.

The "blackening" in Bidri work is not related to dark/black background on coftgari. These are different techniques and methods.

Harry,
These daggers are exactly like those you referred to as "vintage work coming from India", and quality of coftgari or technique has nothing to do with it.
Do you believe they're 1930's based on previous owner's words alone or do you have at least one reputable reference to a similar item being described as such?

harrywagner · 15th October 2015, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALEX

Kubur is correct on both age and technique observations. These are recent decorative, aka tourist items.

The "blackening" in Bidri work is not related to dark/black background on coftgari. These are different techniques and methods.

Harry,
These daggers are exactly like those you referred to as "vintage work coming from India", and quality of coftgari or technique has nothing to do with it.
Do you believe they're 1930's based on previous owner's words alone or do you have at least one reputable reference to a similar item being described as such?

Hi Alex,
Yes. I am asserting that these were both made first half 20th. I make this assertion based on having examined them, and quite a few of the more modern imitations.

Harry

harrywagner · 15th October 2015, 03:16 PM

Here is what the recent Idian daggers look like. It is a completely different animal.

ALEX · 15th October 2015, 03:29 PM

Yes they are different of course, but there was reason when I mentioned: "the quality or technique has nothing to do with it". They are still of the same time period, perhaps +/- 10-20 years but that is irrelevant.

15th October 2015, 03:16 PM	#6
harrywagner Member Join Date: Jul 2015 Posts: 373	This was recently made Here is what the recent Idian daggers look like. It is a completely different animal. Attached Images

15th October 2015, 04:01 AM	#1
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	First of all, these daggers both look like later work to me. Secondly, I believe bidri work is a form of what is also called koftgari.

15th October 2015, 09:46 AM	#2
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Hi Harry, Yes, they are very recent low Indian production. You have plenty on epray. In the 1970ties they had big factories around Mombay, now they have some to the North too. Bidri work is different from koftgari. What we can see here is a low quality koftgari: they apply silver decoration on cold metal. Mostly like a painting, normaly the koftgari should be stuck to etched metal. In the bidri work, they cover the designs and parts that they want to let in silver. Normally covered with clay, then they put the piece in an oven. The non-protected parts will become black. The protected parts will be uncovered later and will stay bright shinny silver. I hope that I'm understandable...

15th October 2015, 01:18 PM	#3
harrywagner Member Join Date: Jul 2015 Posts: 373	Thanks guys. I have seen some of the "vintage" work coming from India, and neither of these fit into that category. The one with the cat's head pommel has been in the posession of a Polish collector who I have bought from several times before. The other was part of an estate sale on Cape Cod. Supposedly it's previous owner bought it on a trip there in the 1930s. I believe it. Battara, the silver work is damascene, or koftgari, if you prefer. Bidri is a technique used to blacken steel. Kubur, you may be right about that not being Bidri, but the steel has definately been blackened in some way. The koftgari is quite good. It stands slightly proud on the both pieces, except for the band around the neck of the one with the cat's head pommel, which is not proud, but flush with the steel. Harry

15th October 2015, 02:41 PM	#4
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Kubur is correct on both age and technique observations. These are recent decorative, aka tourist items. The "blackening" in Bidri work is not related to dark/black background on coftgari. These are different techniques and methods. Harry, These daggers are exactly like those you referred to as "vintage work coming from India", and quality of coftgari or technique has nothing to do with it. Do you believe they're 1930's based on previous owner's words alone or do you have at least one reputable reference to a similar item being described as such?

15th October 2015, 03:29 PM	#7
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Yes they are different of course, but there was reason when I mentioned: "the quality or technique has nothing to do with it". They are still of the same time period, perhaps +/- 10-20 years but that is irrelevant.