On the Use of Indian Terms for Identification of Weapon Types

Jens Nordlunde · 12th October 2015, 09:52 AM

In Robert Elgood's book Arma and Armour at the Jaypur Court. The Royal Collection, Robert gives several examples, like on page 216.

Mace. Shashpar (sash in Persian means six - a six-flanged mace). Rajput courts would have seen this as a destinctly Mughal weapon.
If a bladed weapon was added at the top of the mace, would today be called a gurz with a zaghnol mounted at the top. Other Rajput names for a mace are musala or parigha.

My guess is that the Muslims had several words for the same weapon, depending on if they were under Persian, Turkish or maybe Mongol influence.
The Hindus would also have different names for the same weapon, but that would likely have something to do with where in the country they lived, and which language they spoke.
Jens

Mercenary · 12th October 2015, 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

The Hindus would also have different names for the same weapon, but that would likely have something to do with where in the country they lived, and which language they spoke.
Jens

Exactly! And when someone of European tourists of second half of 19th century heard some of local names and now we have to see it in albums and repeat it as mantra it is not serious.
But even more ridiculous when the tourist asked someone "What is it" and Indian seller answered "It is for cutting, crushing, killing..." so now we have a lot of confusion from "katar", "katari", "katara", "bank", "bichwa", "kirch" and so. I am not talking about that sometimes Indian weapon was called like the material from which it was made ))

ariel · 12th October 2015, 08:45 PM

To accomplish a serious study of the names of Indian weapons one needs to know a multitude of local languages and carefully go through mountains of primary sources. To make things even worse , one needs to verify the meaning of the name of each weapon through careful interrogation of its actual users, and there are none left.

I am very pessimistic about the outcome of this endeavor......

Mercenary · 12th October 2015, 09:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

I am very pessimistic about the outcome of this endeavor......

But you can read that the others know. This is a normal process of learning.

Jens Nordlunde · 13th October 2015, 02:48 PM

Interesting idea about the meaning of the word 'phul'. I think it is worth researching it a bit to see if there anywhere else is evidence that support the idea.

Ariel is right, it will not be easy.
However a way in which it can be done, is to find the names used in Rajasthan at a certain time, both the Persian names but also the local Hindu names. This way the area is geographically bound.
Also one could start with a limited number of weapons.

Jens

Mercenary · 13th October 2015, 09:57 PM

I should not make excuses for my researches. I believe that only professional linguist can to prove something through the manipulation of languages and words.
But I am sure if someone is interesting in Indian culture and weapons he should be interested in something more than staring at the colorful albums. That is why I started my researches in Indian weaponry instead of talking on forums like "I am very pessimistic about my ... abilities".

Dear Jens
Only just for "a little bit to see":
phul = پھل = fruit, flower, blade, razor and so
फौल = Phūla = flower
फौलादा = Phaulādī = fulad (steel)

It is only one of the possible translations. But very interesting one ))

Emanuel · 13th October 2015, 11:49 PM

Hi Mercenary,

Difficult not to fall in the trap of phonetically similar words.

Have a look at Dr. Ann Feuerbach's summary on the research done to date on the word pulad:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=502

Emanuel

ariel · 14th October 2015, 01:48 AM

Dear Mercenary:
I would just humbly suggest to read the first paragraph of the page 9 from Elgood's book on Jaipur collection. One may learn why in Rajastan the khanjar is chhurri and the Kard is Chaqu.
Also , his book about Hindu weapons informs us that Bichwa is Bichwa in Mysore and Hyderabad , but Baku in Kannada and Vinchu in Marathi.

And, BTW, Portugese version of the origin of Indian Pata traces it to the ( surprise, surprise!) Portugese word for paw:-)

Studying origin of words and names is a province of linguistics. This, by definition, requires fluent ( or, at the very least, working ) knowledge of the languages in question.

In the absense thereof, one is doomed to compile the already known bits and pieces from older publications. Rather boring, isn't it? Staring at colorful albums is more productive and original in comparison: at least one may have a chance to see something new and heretofore unappreciated:-)

But if that what tickles your fancy, good luck to you!

13th October 2015, 11:49 PM	#7
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=502 Hi Mercenary, Difficult not to fall in the trap of phonetically similar words. Have a look at Dr. Ann Feuerbach's summary on the research done to date on the word pulad: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=502 Emanuel Last edited by Emanuel; 14th October 2015 at 12:07 AM.

12th October 2015, 09:52 AM	#1
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	In Robert Elgood's book Arma and Armour at the Jaypur Court. The Royal Collection, Robert gives several examples, like on page 216. Mace. Shashpar (sash in Persian means six - a six-flanged mace). Rajput courts would have seen this as a destinctly Mughal weapon. If a bladed weapon was added at the top of the mace, would today be called a gurz with a zaghnol mounted at the top. Other Rajput names for a mace are musala or parigha. My guess is that the Muslims had several words for the same weapon, depending on if they were under Persian, Turkish or maybe Mongol influence. The Hindus would also have different names for the same weapon, but that would likely have something to do with where in the country they lived, and which language they spoke. Jens

12th October 2015, 08:45 PM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	To accomplish a serious study of the names of Indian weapons one needs to know a multitude of local languages and carefully go through mountains of primary sources. To make things even worse , one needs to verify the meaning of the name of each weapon through careful interrogation of its actual users, and there are none left. I am very pessimistic about the outcome of this endeavor......

13th October 2015, 02:48 PM	#5
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Interesting idea about the meaning of the word 'phul'. I think it is worth researching it a bit to see if there anywhere else is evidence that support the idea. Ariel is right, it will not be easy. However a way in which it can be done, is to find the names used in Rajasthan at a certain time, both the Persian names but also the local Hindu names. This way the area is geographically bound. Also one could start with a limited number of weapons. Jens

13th October 2015, 09:57 PM	#6
Mercenary Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Moscow, Russia Posts: 428	I should not make excuses for my researches. I believe that only professional linguist can to prove something through the manipulation of languages and words. But I am sure if someone is interesting in Indian culture and weapons he should be interested in something more than staring at the colorful albums. That is why I started my researches in Indian weaponry instead of talking on forums like "I am very pessimistic about my ... abilities". Dear Jens Only just for "a little bit to see": phul = پھل = fruit, flower, blade, razor and so फौल = Phūla = flower फौलादा = Phaulādī = fulad (steel) It is only one of the possible translations. But very interesting one ))

14th October 2015, 01:48 AM	#8
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Dear Mercenary: I would just humbly suggest to read the first paragraph of the page 9 from Elgood's book on Jaipur collection. One may learn why in Rajastan the khanjar is chhurri and the Kard is Chaqu. Also , his book about Hindu weapons informs us that Bichwa is Bichwa in Mysore and Hyderabad , but Baku in Kannada and Vinchu in Marathi. And, BTW, Portugese version of the origin of Indian Pata traces it to the ( surprise, surprise!) Portugese word for paw:-) Studying origin of words and names is a province of linguistics. This, by definition, requires fluent ( or, at the very least, working ) knowledge of the languages in question. In the absense thereof, one is doomed to compile the already known bits and pieces from older publications. Rather boring, isn't it? Staring at colorful albums is more productive and original in comparison: at least one may have a chance to see something new and heretofore unappreciated:-) But if that what tickles your fancy, good luck to you!