Mid 18 th century Spanish military musket for ID.

rickystl · 11th October 2015, 03:43 PM

Hi Cerjak.
So, the barrel length is close to the French model, but with Spanish markings. Very interesting. Hmmmm.
So it appears you have a French 1717-1728 Model musket, with a Spanish 1752-1757 style lock, but with Spanish markings on the barrel. And it appears to have been made this way from a compilation of surplus parts, with Spanish surcharge markings on the barrel. Very neat and very interesting!!
The French barrels during this period were typically .69 or .72 caliber, where the Spanish barrels were .71 caliber. So both very close in bore size.
Rick.

rickystl · 11th October 2015, 03:59 PM

I hope the Moderator will allow the posting of a replica in this case, just to show a comparison.
Here is an exact replica of a Spanish 1757 infantry musket. The mounts were changed to brass in 1757. The 1752 and 1755 had the same mounts, but iron. The 1752 was supplied with a wood ramrod, while an iron ramrod was adopted in 1755. Otherwise, the guns looked the same.
Notice the Spanish musket looks very different. Including the screws on the butt plate resting above the plate instead of flush in typical Spanish fashion.
Rick.

rickystl · 11th October 2015, 04:00 PM

And the side plate...........

fernando · 11th October 2015, 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickystl

I hope the Moderator will allow the posting of a replica in this case, just to show a comparison...

Abslutely no problem Rick, even more with the purpose to support discussions. We just don't have as a goal in this sub-forum the opening of threads dedicated to replicas ... which is a different thing.

rickystl · 11th October 2015, 05:38 PM

Hi Fernando.
Thanks for your allowence in this case. And I agree, there are other Forums for replicas.
Actually, I've read that the Spanish (Under Phillip V who was a French decendant) updated the Model 1700 musket as early as 1718 with a French style lock similar to the French 1717 lock.
But it's interesting that in the mid 1700's that the miquelet lock was still a preference for civilian guns, and special order pistols for officers. And probably for any/all the reasons you mention above.

Cerjak's musket is the first French gun, with a Spanish lock and surchared barrel I've seen. Makes it super interesting from a historical gun perspective. Thanks again.
Rick.

Cerjak · 11th October 2015, 07:15 PM

Thank you very much to everybody Rick,Fernando K ,Fernando, I have now all the information needed and even more than expected about this riffle.
here some pictures for one with French style lock that I ‘ve already posted 3 years ago.
Overall 152 cm Barrel 110 cm
Cerjak

Fernando K · 11th October 2015, 10:29 PM

Hello

Two comments on what has sustained Ricky. The Spanish muskets, during the 18th century, followed the fashion of the lock to the French, in this case with some Spanish characteristics, the large ring on the screw that adjusts the jaws and striatum rake (Frizen) and recently in 1790 appears the lock of miquelete, although civilian weapons has been used long before. Remarkable is the absence of bridle into the bowl (pan)
Also, service weapon is owned by the Spanish crown, owned by the punch, REI. You can not be a French weapon.

It has not said anything about the method of carrying, the rings of gun carrier

Affectionately. Fernando K

Sorry for the translator

rickystl · 18th October 2015, 04:29 PM

here some pictures for one with French style lock that I ‘ve already posted 3 years ago.
Overall 152 cm Barrel 110 cm
Cerjak

Hi Cerjak.
WOW! Another super interesting musket. Yes, appears to be a 1757 Spanish musket - but with a French lock. Sort of the reverse of the first one posted. LOL

Looks like the muzzle of the barrel had been shortened back in the period. Possibly due to muzzle damage or for civilian use. The lock plates on both the French and Spanish guns were almost interchangeable.
Two very neat muskets Cerjak. Thanks so much for posting.
Rick.

rickystl · 18th October 2015, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fernando K

Hello

Two comments on what has sustained Ricky. The Spanish muskets, during the 18th century, followed the fashion of the lock to the French, in this case with some Spanish characteristics, the large ring on the screw that adjusts the jaws and striatum rake (Frizen) and recently in 1790 appears the lock of miquelete, although civilian weapons has been used long before. Remarkable is the absence of bridle into the bowl (pan)
Also, service weapon is owned by the Spanish crown, owned by the punch, REI. You can not be a French weapon.

It has not said anything about the method of carrying, the rings of gun carrier

Affectionately. Fernando K

Sorry for the translator

Hi Fernando.
Supposedly, the internal and external bribles were added to the French lock in 1722. The 1752 Spanish musket was the compilation of the best features of both the French and Spanish guns. And as you note the "ring" on the top screw is a carry over of the earlier miquelet locks.
An interesting side note: From my own personal experience, I can say that the round ring on the top screw does in fact make aligning and adjusting the flint in the jaws easier and faster. Which is the likely reason the Spanish retained this feature.
Rick.

11th October 2015, 03:59 PM	#2
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,633	I hope the Moderator will allow the posting of a replica in this case, just to show a comparison. Here is an exact replica of a Spanish 1757 infantry musket. The mounts were changed to brass in 1757. The 1752 and 1755 had the same mounts, but iron. The 1752 was supplied with a wood ramrod, while an iron ramrod was adopted in 1755. Otherwise, the guns looked the same. Notice the Spanish musket looks very different. Including the screws on the butt plate resting above the plate instead of flush in typical Spanish fashion. Rick. Attached Images

11th October 2015, 04:00 PM	#3
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,633	And the side plate........... Attached Images

11th October 2015, 07:15 PM	#6
Cerjak Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: FRANCE Posts: 1,065	Thank you very much to everybody Rick,Fernando K ,Fernando, I have now all the information needed and even more than expected about this riffle. here some pictures for one with French style lock that I ‘ve already posted 3 years ago. Overall 152 cm Barrel 110 cm Cerjak Attached Images

11th October 2015, 03:43 PM	#1
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,633	Hi Cerjak. So, the barrel length is close to the French model, but with Spanish markings. Very interesting. Hmmmm. So it appears you have a French 1717-1728 Model musket, with a Spanish 1752-1757 style lock, but with Spanish markings on the barrel. And it appears to have been made this way from a compilation of surplus parts, with Spanish surcharge markings on the barrel. Very neat and very interesting!! The French barrels during this period were typically .69 or .72 caliber, where the Spanish barrels were .71 caliber. So both very close in bore size. Rick.

11th October 2015, 05:38 PM	#5
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,633	Hi Fernando. Thanks for your allowence in this case. And I agree, there are other Forums for replicas. Actually, I've read that the Spanish (Under Phillip V who was a French decendant) updated the Model 1700 musket as early as 1718 with a French style lock similar to the French 1717 lock. But it's interesting that in the mid 1700's that the miquelet lock was still a preference for civilian guns, and special order pistols for officers. And probably for any/all the reasons you mention above. Cerjak's musket is the first French gun, with a Spanish lock and surchared barrel I've seen. Makes it super interesting from a historical gun perspective. Thanks again. Rick.

11th October 2015, 10:29 PM	#7
Fernando K Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 671	Hello Two comments on what has sustained Ricky. The Spanish muskets, during the 18th century, followed the fashion of the lock to the French, in this case with some Spanish characteristics, the large ring on the screw that adjusts the jaws and striatum rake (Frizen) and recently in 1790 appears the lock of miquelete, although civilian weapons has been used long before. Remarkable is the absence of bridle into the bowl (pan) Also, service weapon is owned by the Spanish crown, owned by the punch, REI. You can not be a French weapon. It has not said anything about the method of carrying, the rings of gun carrier Affectionately. Fernando K Sorry for the translator

18th October 2015, 04:29 PM	#8
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,633	here some pictures for one with French style lock that I ‘ve already posted 3 years ago. Overall 152 cm Barrel 110 cm Cerjak Hi Cerjak. WOW! Another super interesting musket. Yes, appears to be a 1757 Spanish musket - but with a French lock. Sort of the reverse of the first one posted. LOL Looks like the muzzle of the barrel had been shortened back in the period. Possibly due to muzzle damage or for civilian use. The lock plates on both the French and Spanish guns were almost interchangeable. Two very neat muskets Cerjak. Thanks so much for posting. Rick.