Silver Keris Coteng with old restoration

A. G. Maisey · 6th October 2015, 11:24 PM

In respect of blade origin:- I can see nothing in this blade that would militate against a Javanese origin. True, the sogokan are a little longer than usual for Jawa, but I have seen innumerable examples of variation from the norm in Javanese blades, and Balinese also, for that matter, not only in sogokan, but in all possible ways. Personally, I'd be happy to accept this as Javanese until it could be shown to be other than that.

Gustav · 7th October 2015, 12:10 AM

That what is left of the Ricikan details is insufficient for me to speculate about the orgin of this blade. Yet - if blades from Malay Peninsula do have Sogokan, it tend to be long.

Roland_M · 7th October 2015, 09:53 PM

Thanks for all the comments. Detlef (sajen) explained very well what I tried to say with "curved in z-direction".

There are 11 luk, thanks.

I investigated the blade with a microscope and it is very deeply corroded but the tip itself seems to have its original length. Hard to judge.
I will leave the blade as it is, it is too late for a repolishing.

My guess about the European restoration is because I believe, a silversmith in Indonesia knows how a Keris Coteng must look. Whatever, it is a felicitous restoration in my eyes.

Roland

David · 8th October 2015, 12:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roland_M

I investigated the blade with a microscope and it is very deeply corroded but the tip itself seems to have its original length. Hard to judge.
I will leave the blade as it is, it is too late for a repolishing.

My guess about the European restoration is because I believe, a silversmith in Indonesia knows how a Keris Coteng must look. Whatever, it is a felicitous restoration in my eyes.

Roland, if, as most seem to agree, this blade originated in Jawa it would not be correct to re-polish it anyway. Balinese blades were often polished after cleaning, but it is not the norm for keris in general.
The sheath here was obviously damaged and is missing parts of the original wood. I don't believe that an Indonesian silversmith would have been capable of making a repair that returned this sheath to its original and intended shape as a coteng sheath. So i'm not convinced that is evidence of where this repair was actually done. It could still be Indonesian work as easily as European IMO. In most cases, if the owner of this keris had the money, a new sheath would have been commissioned. It this case it would seem they did not.

Gustav · 8th October 2015, 08:03 AM

As I wrote, because of the state of the blade in question I am not able to say, where this blade has been made. I have named almost only one still readable Ricikan feature, and this feature, together with dress, allow to think of Malay Peninsula as one of possible origin places of this blade.

Now I would like to hear some equally valid arguments for Java as origin of it, as, I quote, most of us seem to agree, this blade was originated in Java.

A. G. Maisey · 8th October 2015, 09:08 AM

Gustav, I do not believe that anybody has said that this blade could not have originated in the Peninsula, and speaking for myself, I am quite prepared to accept the possibility of Peninsula origin, or Kalimantan origin, or South Sumatran origin, or origin in almost any place in SE Asia.

However my opinion is that there is nothing at all in the make-up of this blade that would prevent it from originating in Jawa, as I wrote:-

"I can see nothing in this blade that would militate against a Javanese origin."

Jean has said:- "It looks Javanese"

Detlef thinks it looks like a Palembang blade.

Once again, simply opinions.

You have expressed your opinion that it could be Peninsula.

We all have different opinions, and to attempt to construct any sort of logical argument to support any point of origin, when all we have are photos on several different computer monitors would seem to me to be not only pointless in this case, but without question, impossible.

Personally, I don't want to change anybody's opinion, most especially since it seems that none of us hold our individual opinions with very much conviction.

I will make one further comment. It is not the condition of the blade , nor the erosion of the blade features that is the problem in any attempt to be too definite about this blade origin. The problem is that the blade has several features which do not really fit together very well:- the ada-ada is a high ridge that continues to the point, the blumbangan is boto rubuh, the gandhik looks like something from Lombok or further east, pamor appears to be sanak, the wave form is similar to that which many people usually associate with Pengging or even Pajang. In fact, we're looking at a dog's breakfast of various styles. Overall, yes, Javanese, based on pawakan, but one place where this assemblage of various styles does occur fairly frequently is Borneo, ie, Brunei and Kalimantan.

More opinions are always welcome, but let us not try to support an opinion that cannot be supported.

Gustav · 8th October 2015, 11:29 AM

Alan, thank you very much for your detailed response - my thoughts are very similar, if not almost the same.

Dear All, I think, we should try to avoid a swift attribution without proper looking at the parameters of blade. Of course it is almost not worth all the trouble in this case, yet it always is a good exercise.

Jean · 8th October 2015, 11:44 AM

Thank you Alan. I would like to add 2 observations:
. From the pics the blade does not seem to properly fit into the scabbard (sinking & floating into the slot and with a different angle), so this kris is probably a dealer's montage?
. According to a well-known javanese kris book written by Koesni in 1979, a long sogokan is an indicator of tangguh Pajang but we know how incertain it is...

Gustav, could you please show us a similar wavy blade attributed to the Malay Peninsula?

Regards

Roland_M · 8th October 2015, 11:45 AM

Alan, I'm far away from being an expert for Keris like you.
My simple opinion is, that the blade is older than the hilt and sheath. The blade fits very exactly in the sheath, so I think it could be the original blade for this Coteng.

If this would help, I can make some makro-pictures from different angles.

Thank you for your very valuable comments.

I'm also very thankful, if you correct my opinion, with your expert knowledge.

Many collectors including myself have a tendency to admire their own blades more than they are worth with a more objective point of view.

Roland

Roland_M · 8th October 2015, 11:59 AM

"In most cases, if the owner of this keris had the money, a new sheath would have been commissioned. It this case it would seem they did not. "

David, this makes sense.

But the quality of the silver work is on a high level, I almost think, a new sheath would be cheaper than such a silverwork.

The upper ring was lost, I gave the sheath to a jeweller and he took ~75$ for only one silver ring.

All I can say for sure is that it is a quite old restoration because of the thick black patina, the surface of the silver is full of tiny pitting.

Roland

8th October 2015, 11:45 AM	#9
Roland_M Member Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: Germany Posts: 525	Alan, I'm far away from being an expert for Keris like you. My simple opinion is, that the blade is older than the hilt and sheath. The blade fits very exactly in the sheath, so I think it could be the original blade for this Coteng. If this would help, I can make some makro-pictures from different angles. Thank you for your very valuable comments. I'm also very thankful, if you correct my opinion, with your expert knowledge. Many collectors including myself have a tendency to admire their own blades more than they are worth with a more objective point of view. Roland Last edited by Roland_M; 8th October 2015 at 12:05 PM.

6th October 2015, 11:24 PM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	In respect of blade origin:- I can see nothing in this blade that would militate against a Javanese origin. True, the sogokan are a little longer than usual for Jawa, but I have seen innumerable examples of variation from the norm in Javanese blades, and Balinese also, for that matter, not only in sogokan, but in all possible ways. Personally, I'd be happy to accept this as Javanese until it could be shown to be other than that.

7th October 2015, 12:10 AM	#2
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,273	That what is left of the Ricikan details is insufficient for me to speculate about the orgin of this blade. Yet - if blades from Malay Peninsula do have Sogokan, it tend to be long.

7th October 2015, 09:53 PM	#3
Roland_M Member Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: Germany Posts: 525	Thanks for all the comments. Detlef (sajen) explained very well what I tried to say with "curved in z-direction". There are 11 luk, thanks. I investigated the blade with a microscope and it is very deeply corroded but the tip itself seems to have its original length. Hard to judge. I will leave the blade as it is, it is too late for a repolishing. My guess about the European restoration is because I believe, a silversmith in Indonesia knows how a Keris Coteng must look. Whatever, it is a felicitous restoration in my eyes. Roland

8th October 2015, 08:03 AM	#5
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,273	As I wrote, because of the state of the blade in question I am not able to say, where this blade has been made. I have named almost only one still readable Ricikan feature, and this feature, together with dress, allow to think of Malay Peninsula as one of possible origin places of this blade. Now I would like to hear some equally valid arguments for Java as origin of it, as, I quote, most of us seem to agree, this blade was originated in Java.

8th October 2015, 09:08 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Gustav, I do not believe that anybody has said that this blade could not have originated in the Peninsula, and speaking for myself, I am quite prepared to accept the possibility of Peninsula origin, or Kalimantan origin, or South Sumatran origin, or origin in almost any place in SE Asia. However my opinion is that there is nothing at all in the make-up of this blade that would prevent it from originating in Jawa, as I wrote:- "I can see nothing in this blade that would militate against a Javanese origin." Jean has said:- "It looks Javanese" Detlef thinks it looks like a Palembang blade. Once again, simply opinions. You have expressed your opinion that it could be Peninsula. We all have different opinions, and to attempt to construct any sort of logical argument to support any point of origin, when all we have are photos on several different computer monitors would seem to me to be not only pointless in this case, but without question, impossible. Personally, I don't want to change anybody's opinion, most especially since it seems that none of us hold our individual opinions with very much conviction. I will make one further comment. It is not the condition of the blade , nor the erosion of the blade features that is the problem in any attempt to be too definite about this blade origin. The problem is that the blade has several features which do not really fit together very well:- the ada-ada is a high ridge that continues to the point, the blumbangan is boto rubuh, the gandhik looks like something from Lombok or further east, pamor appears to be sanak, the wave form is similar to that which many people usually associate with Pengging or even Pajang. In fact, we're looking at a dog's breakfast of various styles. Overall, yes, Javanese, based on pawakan, but one place where this assemblage of various styles does occur fairly frequently is Borneo, ie, Brunei and Kalimantan. More opinions are always welcome, but let us not try to support an opinion that cannot be supported.

8th October 2015, 11:29 AM	#7
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,273	Alan, thank you very much for your detailed response - my thoughts are very similar, if not almost the same. Dear All, I think, we should try to avoid a swift attribution without proper looking at the parameters of blade. Of course it is almost not worth all the trouble in this case, yet it always is a good exercise.

8th October 2015, 11:44 AM	#8
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Thank you Alan. I would like to add 2 observations: . From the pics the blade does not seem to properly fit into the scabbard (sinking & floating into the slot and with a different angle), so this kris is probably a dealer's montage? . According to a well-known javanese kris book written by Koesni in 1979, a long sogokan is an indicator of tangguh Pajang but we know how incertain it is... Gustav, could you please show us a similar wavy blade attributed to the Malay Peninsula? Regards

8th October 2015, 11:59 AM	#10
Roland_M Member Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: Germany Posts: 525	"In most cases, if the owner of this keris had the money, a new sheath would have been commissioned. It this case it would seem they did not. " David, this makes sense. But the quality of the silver work is on a high level, I almost think, a new sheath would be cheaper than such a silverwork. The upper ring was lost, I gave the sheath to a jeweller and he took ~75$ for only one silver ring. All I can say for sure is that it is a quite old restoration because of the thick black patina, the surface of the silver is full of tiny pitting. Roland