Keris Holders

A. G. Maisey · 2nd October 2015, 02:27 AM

Yes, I understand what you're saying, and my attitude is pretty similar. In fact, I buy any decent one I see, provided I can afford it. I've only got two old ones though, they're probably early 20th century, maybe late 19th century, they both weigh a ton, they cost me small fortune to buy, and another to get home to Australia, but they are the only truly old, good ones I've ever seen for sale.

David · 2nd October 2015, 05:20 AM

So i guess i'm a little slow even though i posted the link.
I just have to say that considering Cynthia's mining of this forum for information as well as the visual contribution made by various EAAF members, she really dissed us not making any mention of the forum in her opening acknowledgment.

A. G. Maisey · 2nd October 2015, 05:48 AM

Yeah, it could be read as disrespect, but being the kind hearted person I am, I'd prefer to read it as marketing: the way in which she presented her attributions gives the impression of long and diligent research, much more impressive to the people who would evaluate the paper than attaching the attributions to an internet Forum.

Rick · 2nd October 2015, 03:42 PM

I would guess that: 'I got it off the Web' is probably the kiss of death to papers such as this .

David · 2nd October 2015, 04:03 PM

Sorry, she acknowledged her "friends and family". She could have very easily added "and my friends at EAAF" without giving much away on that front.

asomotif · 2nd October 2015, 11:01 PM

Thank you Alan for posting this academic paper.

I like figure 2 ;-). Pretty weird to see that I am a Australian collector.

I agree that referring to the forum would have been a nice gesture, but would on the other hand indeed be "the kiss of death" and bring the thesis back to a high school project level.

I am surprised to see 2 estatically very very poor statues in this paper with full credits and including a link to the website of a commercial trader.

But otherwise, I am very happy to see this new thread combining this thesis with other interesting threads, indeed showing a lot of very fine examples.
Thank you Alan and David.

Best regards,
Willem

A. G. Maisey · 3rd October 2015, 12:22 AM

Willem, my 16 year old grandson tells me that he is only permitted a rather low percentage of material sourced from the net in his projects, they have to actually use hard-copy material and give full references. Looks like the teachers have woken up, at least in some places. I remember 15 years ago I knew candidates for Masters and PhD degrees who were getting most of their material off the net.

I thought that overall the holders shown were quite representative of the body of this form. Yes, certainly there were a few roughies there, but very often the genuine old ones are not major works of art. There were a few that were done for the tourist trade too.

In fact virtually all the old ones that I have seen with ordinary families had been carved by members of the family, not professional artists. I believe that this is, in general, the case with these holders.

The art and craft that we currently associate with Bali is principally the result of input to the Bali craft ethic during the 1920's and 1930's. A good place to see what Balinese painting looked like prior to the early 20th century is the Palace of Justice in Klungkung. Its all "wayang style".

All decorative art prior to the puputans was either religious or royal, the common people did not employ professionals for the purpose of ornamentation, they did it themselves, and carving from this grass roots source looks exactly like what it is:- folk art --- at best.

The refined carving that we associate with Bali now began its development during the 1920's and by the 1930's was in full swing. As far as I can work out from personal experience, there was another surge of development in the 1960's and 1970's.

The carving on temples and in other public places in Bali is mostly in stone, but it is very soft stone that has a very limited life, so even on the buildings that are quite old, the carved ornamentation is unlikely to be more than around 50-100 years old. The Balinese ethic is that the carving once done does not need to be preserved, it is the act of creation that honours the deity, not the act of preservation.

With keris holders, I very much doubt that any holders that demonstrate a high level of execution are in existence that pre-date circa 1900, and I'm being extremely generous in my estimate here. Something with a high level of execution from the 1930's I would consider to be about as old as we could expect, and then we need to consider if this holder was actually something produced for use in a Balinese household, or whether it was produced for sale to a visitor from outside the Balinese community. But there have been some exceptionally fine holders, and other carvings, produced by Balinese carvers during the last 40 years.

2nd October 2015, 02:27 AM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,049	Yes, I understand what you're saying, and my attitude is pretty similar. In fact, I buy any decent one I see, provided I can afford it. I've only got two old ones though, they're probably early 20th century, maybe late 19th century, they both weigh a ton, they cost me small fortune to buy, and another to get home to Australia, but they are the only truly old, good ones I've ever seen for sale.

2nd October 2015, 05:20 AM	#2
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,230	So i guess i'm a little slow even though i posted the link. I just have to say that considering Cynthia's mining of this forum for information as well as the visual contribution made by various EAAF members, she really dissed us not making any mention of the forum in her opening acknowledgment.

2nd October 2015, 05:48 AM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,049	Yeah, it could be read as disrespect, but being the kind hearted person I am, I'd prefer to read it as marketing: the way in which she presented her attributions gives the impression of long and diligent research, much more impressive to the people who would evaluate the paper than attaching the attributions to an internet Forum.

2nd October 2015, 03:42 PM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,348	I would guess that: 'I got it off the Web' is probably the kiss of death to papers such as this .

2nd October 2015, 04:03 PM	#5
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,230	Sorry, she acknowledged her "friends and family". She could have very easily added "and my friends at EAAF" without giving much away on that front.

2nd October 2015, 11:01 PM	#6
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,235	Thank you Alan for posting this academic paper. I like figure 2 ;-). Pretty weird to see that I am a Australian collector. I agree that referring to the forum would have been a nice gesture, but would on the other hand indeed be "the kiss of death" and bring the thesis back to a high school project level. I am surprised to see 2 estatically very very poor statues in this paper with full credits and including a link to the website of a commercial trader. But otherwise, I am very happy to see this new thread combining this thesis with other interesting threads, indeed showing a lot of very fine examples. Thank you Alan and David. Best regards, Willem

3rd October 2015, 12:22 AM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,049	Willem, my 16 year old grandson tells me that he is only permitted a rather low percentage of material sourced from the net in his projects, they have to actually use hard-copy material and give full references. Looks like the teachers have woken up, at least in some places. I remember 15 years ago I knew candidates for Masters and PhD degrees who were getting most of their material off the net. I thought that overall the holders shown were quite representative of the body of this form. Yes, certainly there were a few roughies there, but very often the genuine old ones are not major works of art. There were a few that were done for the tourist trade too. In fact virtually all the old ones that I have seen with ordinary families had been carved by members of the family, not professional artists. I believe that this is, in general, the case with these holders. The art and craft that we currently associate with Bali is principally the result of input to the Bali craft ethic during the 1920's and 1930's. A good place to see what Balinese painting looked like prior to the early 20th century is the Palace of Justice in Klungkung. Its all "wayang style". All decorative art prior to the puputans was either religious or royal, the common people did not employ professionals for the purpose of ornamentation, they did it themselves, and carving from this grass roots source looks exactly like what it is:- folk art --- at best. The refined carving that we associate with Bali now began its development during the 1920's and by the 1930's was in full swing. As far as I can work out from personal experience, there was another surge of development in the 1960's and 1970's. The carving on temples and in other public places in Bali is mostly in stone, but it is very soft stone that has a very limited life, so even on the buildings that are quite old, the carved ornamentation is unlikely to be more than around 50-100 years old. The Balinese ethic is that the carving once done does not need to be preserved, it is the act of creation that honours the deity, not the act of preservation. With keris holders, I very much doubt that any holders that demonstrate a high level of execution are in existence that pre-date circa 1900, and I'm being extremely generous in my estimate here. Something with a high level of execution from the 1930's I would consider to be about as old as we could expect, and then we need to consider if this holder was actually something produced for use in a Balinese household, or whether it was produced for sale to a visitor from outside the Balinese community. But there have been some exceptionally fine holders, and other carvings, produced by Balinese carvers during the last 40 years.