Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > European Armoury
User Name
Password
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 28th September 2015, 03:50 PM   #1
Evgeny_K
Member
 
Evgeny_K's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 167
Question War Hammer (Nadziak)

Colleagues,
What do you think about origins of this war hammer?
Ottoman? European ?
It has several markings of the same type.
Please, look at photos attached.
Regards.
Attached Images
    
Evgeny_K is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th September 2015, 10:24 PM   #2
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 7,585
Default

Very interesting piece, Evgeny.
Can you give dimensions and weight ?
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th September 2015, 10:52 PM   #3
David
Keris forum moderator
 
David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: The Great Midwest
Posts: 5,890
Default

Are you sure this is a war hammer. I don't know much about these, but i have never seen one where the back end curves downward so much.
David is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th September 2015, 10:56 PM   #4
Evgeny_K
Member
 
Evgeny_K's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 167
Default

Hello Fernando!
Here is a pic with dimensions.
Unfortunately I can't weigh the hammer at this moment.
Feels like more than 200 grams.
Attached Images
 
Evgeny_K is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th September 2015, 10:58 PM   #5
Evgeny_K
Member
 
Evgeny_K's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 167
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by David
Are you sure this is a war hammer. I don't know much about these, but i have never seen one where the back end curves downward so much.


I'm sure David.

here is another one (not mine)
Attached Images
 
Evgeny_K is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th September 2015, 01:03 AM   #6
kronckew
Member
 
kronckew's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: CSA Consulate, Rm. 101, Glos. UK: p.s. - Real Dogs Have Feathering.
Posts: 3,096
Default

the polish ones seem to favour the down-curved spike, some almost hook-like. which might be a useful additional function. most seem to be fairly utilitarian & had wood hafts. the hooks were used to drag an opponent off their horse by hooking their clothing or straps, mail, etc.

light horsemans war hammers (nadziak) were popular in poland's nobility long after they fell out of favour elsewhere.

ref: http://polisharms.com/warhammers/

mine: 15cm across, 2.5 cm. eye hole.
Attached Images
 

Last edited by kronckew : 29th September 2015 at 01:28 AM.
kronckew is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th September 2015, 01:25 AM   #7
kronckew
Member
 
kronckew's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: CSA Consulate, Rm. 101, Glos. UK: p.s. - Real Dogs Have Feathering.
Posts: 3,096
Default

nadziaks with sharp downcurved spikes were sometimes called obuszek, as were those with an axe blade opposite the hammer head instead of a spike like this one of mine: the axe end could also hook. this one has a rather nasty butt spike that could finish off an opponent thru an eye or ear hole in their helmet.
Attached Images
 

Last edited by kronckew : 29th September 2015 at 01:35 AM.
kronckew is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th September 2015, 05:05 AM   #8
Oliver Pinchot
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 347
Default

The round pein and faceted spike are characteristic of Polish work. The repeating stamped motifs are also typical. Nice example.

Last edited by Oliver Pinchot : 29th September 2015 at 06:37 AM.
Oliver Pinchot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th September 2015, 05:15 AM   #9
Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Member
 
Ibrahiim al Balooshi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
Posts: 4,359
Send a message via MSN to Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver Pinchot
The form suggests Polish work. The repeating stamped motifs are also typical. Nice example.



Salaams Oliver Pinchot, On following up your post I discovered the development in Polish War Hammers followed the essential track of the following from http://www.jasinski.co.uk/wojna/spirals/s-hammer.htm

Czekan. The biggest sketch below.
It consisted of a hammer head on one side and an axe on the other side.

Nadziak. Shown as the only photo below.
The most popular war hammer had a hammers head which was often hexagonal in cross-section and tapering to the shaft. It was usually balanced by a long slightly drooping beak.

Obuch. The smallest sketch below.
Unlike the other two whose names evolved from Turkish, Obuch is an old Polish word - originally the blind end of an axe. It is similar to a Nadziak but with a curved beak which ended up pointing towards the shaft.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
Attached Images
   

Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi : 29th September 2015 at 09:52 AM.
Ibrahiim al Balooshi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th September 2015, 06:38 AM   #10
Oliver Pinchot
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 347
Default

Salaam alaikum ya sadiq al karim.
This one looks to be 18th century.
Oliver Pinchot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th September 2015, 07:42 AM   #11
Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Member
 
Ibrahiim al Balooshi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
Posts: 4,359
Send a message via MSN to Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver Pinchot
Salaam alaikum ya sadiq al karim.
This one looks to be 18th century.



Salaams Oliver Pinchot, Nice to see your posts and I note at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...t=polish+hammer there is a great note by Jim Macdougal on this little attended weapon ...

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
Ibrahiim al Balooshi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th September 2015, 07:43 AM   #12
Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Member
 
Ibrahiim al Balooshi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
Posts: 4,359
Send a message via MSN to Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver Pinchot
Salaam alaikum ya sadiq al karim.
This one looks to be 18th century.



Salaams Oliver Pinchot, Nice to see your posts and I note at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...t=polish+hammer there is a great note by Jim Macdougal on this little attended weapon ...at #10.
n addition I note from web ...Eastern Europe and the influences of Western
Asia and the Steppes. Turkish and Tartar
fashion and weaponry were very popular in the
Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth in the late
16th and 17th centuries.
This is evident in Polish war hammers (nadziak)
and war axes (czekan). These are said to be derived namewise from Turkish whilst Obusk is a Polish word perhaps indicating provenance.
These long- handled weapons with small heads
were quite effective when swung from
horseback. I would suggest however that the advent of effective body armour was the precursor to such weapons being developed though the evidence must clearly be linked to other countries across Europe and for that we should compare Italian, German and other regions. It seems to me that the development may be from a mixed variety though Turkish and home grown Polish may well be at the front..if there is a front??

In the 17th century, Nadziak war hammers and
Czekans war axes also became fashionable
walking canes for the nobility. Like many long handled original weapon axe/hammers such as the Mussandam Axe these became both a utility weapon/herders weapon and walking out accoutrements as well as a defensive item.

Here below is a highly ornate example sold at auction.

Description
A POLISH WAR HAMMER, IN 17TH CENTURY STYLE but actually19th Century. This is a Nadziac

The head formed with central spike of stiff-diamond section cut with wavy edges, small hammer-head formed with a beveled rectangular face, faceted tapering rear fluke, a pair of transverse spikes matching the rear fluke, all the elements projecting from a short molded neck, and with faceted tubular socket: on its original lacquered wooden haft with iron shoe.
The head 11½in (29.3cm)

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
Attached Images
 

Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi : 29th September 2015 at 10:00 AM.
Ibrahiim al Balooshi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th September 2015, 08:27 AM   #13
Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Member
 
Ibrahiim al Balooshi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
Posts: 4,359
Send a message via MSN to Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Default

I see a variety of potential connections with German and Italian as well as indications of a Middle east root to the development of War Axes in Poland but I have to say that the likely driver for this type of weapon was probably the advent of armour... making it difficult to penetrate an armoured mounted Knight with simply a sword... The war axe
/hammer was ideal for this purpose.

Here is an North Italian version of late 16th C in the single picture and a group of 8 weapons from German, Italian and Venetian forms...from the same period. Met Museum.
Attached Images
  

Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi : 29th September 2015 at 09:43 AM.
Ibrahiim al Balooshi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th September 2015, 08:38 AM   #14
Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Member
 
Ibrahiim al Balooshi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
Posts: 4,359
Send a message via MSN to Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Default

The following advice carries a warning... Gather together several bags of sandwiches and drinks hot and cold...and disappear into your favourite Ethnographics corner at home and paste this into search..

file:///C:/Users/LENOVO/Desktop/aaaaa/Dziewulski01.pdf

This is a fabulous review ...I will say no more...

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
Ibrahiim al Balooshi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th September 2015, 09:36 AM   #15
Evgeny_K
Member
 
Evgeny_K's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 167
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver Pinchot
The round pein and faceted spike are characteristic of Polish work. The repeating stamped motifs are also typical. Nice example.


Thank you Oliver!
So it's a Polish nadziak?

Last edited by Evgeny_K : 29th September 2015 at 11:41 AM.
Evgeny_K is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th September 2015, 12:23 PM   #16
BerberDagger
Member
 
BerberDagger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 242
Default

Hello , It remember me the ancient luristan or sarmatian hammer ... I ve a similar one in bronze .Your seems later maybe 16th-17th century.... Very nice exemple .
BerberDagger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th September 2015, 05:02 PM   #17
Emanuel
Member
 
Emanuel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 1,242
Default

Hello,

My apologies but are we quite sure this is not just someone's reworked rail spike? Similar dimensions and rough look.

Rail spikes are a favourite for blacksmith/bladesmith exercises in making knife/axe blades and hammers heads.
See this example


I also have teeth from 19th century agricultural machinery with very similar stamps

Emanuel
Attached Images
   
Emanuel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th September 2015, 05:27 PM   #18
Evgeny_K
Member
 
Evgeny_K's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 167
Default

Emanuel, I'm SURE that it's not a reworked spike
Evgeny_K is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th September 2015, 06:06 PM   #19
Emanuel
Member
 
Emanuel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 1,242
Thumbs up

Ok Evgeny, glad to hear it
This has happened before though, so just wanted to make sure.
Emanuel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th September 2015, 02:50 AM   #20
Oliver Pinchot
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 347
Default

Yes, Evgeny. This type is very closely based on the Ottoman form.
Oliver Pinchot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd October 2015, 10:40 PM   #21
broadaxe
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 313
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver Pinchot
Yes, Evgeny. This type is very closely based on the Ottoman form.


Indeed, probably Arab/Druze variation. The Druze people call it 'Clink', a horseman's weapon.
broadaxe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th October 2015, 12:04 PM   #22
Evgeny_K
Member
 
Evgeny_K's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 167
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by broadaxe
Indeed, probably Arab/Druze variation. The Druze people call it 'Clink', a horseman's weapon.


Place of a find does not comply with this version.
Evgeny_K is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th October 2015, 09:59 AM   #23
ulfberth
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 243
Default

Hello Evgeny,

Here are some war hammers from the Landeszeughaus in Graz , an arsenal like collection.
This has become quite an interesting thread thanks to all the comments of the forum members.
As Ibrahiim has already pointed out, it does seem that the hammer you've got there is indeed European.
I'm sure it is not a reworked big spike, I have some 17th C spikes here, but I don't know if it would be appropriate to post them.

kind regards

Ulfberth
Attached Images
 
ulfberth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th October 2015, 11:01 AM   #24
Sancar
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 79
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Salaams Oliver Pinchot, On following up your post I discovered the development in Polish War Hammers followed the essential track of the following from http://www.jasinski.co.uk/wojna/spirals/s-hammer.htm

Czekan. The biggest sketch below.
It consisted of a hammer head on one side and an axe on the other side.

Nadziak. Shown as the only photo below.
The most popular war hammer had a hammers head which was often hexagonal in cross-section and tapering to the shaft. It was usually balanced by a long slightly drooping beak.

Obuch. The smallest sketch below.
Unlike the other two whose names evolved from Turkish, Obuch is an old Polish word - originally the blind end of an axe. It is similar to a Nadziak but with a curved beak which ended up pointing towards the shaft.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.


Hello İbrahim, do you know which Turkish words this two terms evolve from? My first guess is Çevgen(polo stick) for Czekan, and Nacak(small hand axe) for Nadziack; but these are just based on phonetic similarities, so it is probably wrong.

Last edited by Sancar : 16th October 2015 at 06:29 AM.
Sancar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th October 2015, 11:45 AM   #25
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 7,585
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ulfberth
... I have some 17th C spikes here, but I don't know if it would be appropriate to post them...

To support te discussion ... why not ?
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th October 2015, 01:03 PM   #26
ulfberth
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 243
Default

Here they are Fernando,

Clearly the one Evgeny posted is a true hammer while these are nails.
17; 14 and 7 cm

kind regards

Ulfberth
Attached Images
   
ulfberth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th October 2015, 05:01 PM   #27
Evgeny_K
Member
 
Evgeny_K's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 167
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ulfberth
Hello Evgeny,

Here are some war hammers from the Landeszeughaus in Graz , an arsenal like collection.
This has become quite an interesting thread thanks to all the comments of the forum members.
As Ibrahiim has already pointed out, it does seem that the hammer you've got there is indeed European.
I'm sure it is not a reworked big spike, I have some 17th C spikes here, but I don't know if it would be appropriate to post them.

kind regards

Ulfberth


Hello Ulfberth,
Thank you for the picture.
Regards,
Evgeny
Evgeny_K is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th October 2015, 11:20 PM   #28
broadaxe
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 313
Default

I say again - clearly Ottoman influenced (could have been from both sides of the empire). Maybe East European or Balkan, possibly 'fokos'. Too long to be made of rail spike. BTW, Ottoman rail spikes were made of wrought iron that cannot be hardened, so they were useless as recyclable material for country weapon manufacture.
broadaxe is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 04:58 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.