The development of the Indian katar

[Emanuel]

Hello,

Attached are illustrations originally posted by Brian (B.I), dated as 16th and 17th centuries.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attach...tid=5314&stc=1
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attach...tid=5315&stc=1
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attach...tid=5316&stc=1
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attach...id=10404&stc=1
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attach...id=10406&stc=1

Elgood had shown some very early sculptures depicting warriors using jamadhar/katar: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=82814


Emanuel

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

From the Met Museum~See http://www.metmuseum.org/collection/...e/search/24306

Daggers of this type, called katars, were designed to be held by the cross bars in a clenched fist. This is one of the few that retains its embossed leather scabbard. Elaborately decorated examples worn thrust through a waist sash, can be seen in many Indian paintings of this period.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Ian,
Thank you very much for showing the hero stones(?) from your friends family. They are very interesting, and even more so should someone, with half an hour of free time :-) decide to start translating the texts.
The third one from the top, the one with the katar could be 16th century (but I am guessing). Compare the katar base to the on from Hamza shown in post 10. You will see that the 'V' on the base is very clear.
A century later the 'V' on the base flattened and sometimes almost dissapeared.
If you look through The Hamza book you will notice that of all the daggers/knives shown more than half are 'normal' daggers, and under half are katars. If you then have a look at King of the World, made about a century later, you will see that the picture has changed, and there are more katars than daggers.
Other katar bases developed in the later centuries, likely due to a new fashion, but the ones shown in Hamza and in King of the World continued to be used for centuries.

Jim and Fernando,
Thank you for your mails. I am not too happy, when you say that the origin of the katar was Rajput. I would be far happier if you said Hindu, as I untill further, believe that the katars origin is south af India.
The warrior Jaiwant Paul shows in his book would likely be a prince or a nobleman, but it is hard to say from which time, maybe late 17th to 18th century. The drawing is new, but it may have been copied from an old miniature.

Ibrahim,
The piece from Wikepedia is interesting reading, but I would not put my name under it.
It is true that the katars with the time got more and more fantastic, like the ones with two pistols attached, but I doubt how practical it was in combat.

[Ian]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Ian,
Thank you very much for showing the hero stones(?) from your friends family. They are very interesting, and even more so should someone, with half an hour of free time decide to start translating the texts.
The third one from the top, the one with the katar could be 16th century (but I am guessing). Compare the katar base to the one from Hamza shown in post 10. You will see that the 'V' on the base is very clear.
A century later the 'V' on the base flattened and sometimes almost disappeared.
If you look through The Hamza book you will notice that of all the daggers/knives shown more than half are 'normal' daggers, and under half are katars. If you then have a look at King of the World, made about a century later, you will see that the picture has changed, and there are more katars than daggers.
Other katar bases developed in the later centuries, likely due to a new fashion, but the ones shown in Hamza and in King of the World continued to be used for centuries. ...

Jens:

Thank you for this very specific information. So it seems that information from the memorial stones of a powerful ruling Rajput clan fits with the other historical evidence that you have collected. And your piece of information about the inverted V-shape at the base of the blade seems to add authenticity to the claim that this monument dates from the 16th or 17th C. I always think it is very neat when different data come to the same conclusions.

Please remember that my dating is approximate only, which is why I said that the use of the katar by this group was probably no earlier than the 16th C. Finding somebody to translate the archaic text has proven challenging (apparently it is neither Sanskrit nor Hindi nor modern Gujarati). And persuading an expert to visit the site to translate the text is another matter (I have been told that my pictures of the text are not very clear for translation purposes).

More to be revealed.

Ian.

[Emanuel]

Additional illustrations of Mughals and potentially Rajputs wearing the katar are shown in the Akbarama from 1568.

So we know that by the 16th century this weapon was known and used north and south by Hindus and Mughals alike.

Emanuel

[Jens Nordlunde]

Ian,

I am by no way a specialist when it comes to stone pieces, but the one you showed could be 16th or 17th century - I am sure the text will show.
Wh have however come a stem further as we now know taht the stone is from Gujarat and likely to be quite old. To this comes that a katar of the same kind as shown in the Hanza is shown.
This katar base was used for centuries, but the earliest I have seen is in the Hamza, and I think it is safe to say, that the stone must be older than 18th century, so 16th to 17th century would not surprice me.
Photographing text on an old worn stone is at best very difficult, and to get someone why knows many if the different languages to go and have a look may be even more difficult.

Emanuel,
Thank you for the pictures they are quite interesting.
Yes we know that the katar was used in Deccan, south India, Rajasthan and maybe even more to the north in the 16th century. It does howeven seem as if it was used less in Rajasthan than to the south - although there is very little evidence to prove this.
It would be fantastic if proof could be found of how the katar developed from the drawing Rajendralala Mitra shows to the fully developed katar shown in the Hamza and other miniatures from the time.

[Emanuel]

One last picture Jens, for posterity. Egerton's plate of the arms of Akbar, from the Ain-i-Akbari.

As for Rajasthan, I had seen a great many jamadhars in Bikaner but sadly they were not dated.

Hopefully Elgood's books on the Jodhpur and Jaipur armouries will shine more light into the matter.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Emanuel,
Thanks for the pictures from Bikaner. I have never been there, unfortunately, but I have seem pictures from the armoury, and it is quite impressive.
A lot of weapons formerly in the Bikaner armoury are now in museums or private collections, so the collection must have been very big before they started to sell from it.
It is well known that a lot of the weapons in the armoury come from Adoni, when the Bikaner Maharaja Anup Singh sacked the fort and returned a lot of booty to Bikaner, while he stayed down there. Other of the weapons likely come from other places in Deccan where Anup Singh also participated in fighting. The problem is, that I have never seen a list showing which weapons come from the south, and which were made at Bikaner.
When looking at your pictures it is interesting to see how many of the katars are chiselled but without any gold or silver decoration, and how many are undecorated.
The plate you show from Egerton shows different types of katars, but they all have the V-shaped base - it must have been fashion at the time.
Robert's book from Jaipur is out and for sale. Arms and Armour at the Jaipur Court. The Royal Collection. ISBN 978-93-83098-77-4.
The Jodhpur book showld be out later this year I have been told.
Jens