Kindjals, Quamas and Quaddaras

[Miguel]

Hi everyone,
I would like to pose the following questions.
1-When is a kindjal a Quama or Quaddara or vice versa ?
2- How can you tell the country of origin ?
3- Why do some blades have a flat diamond section devoid of fillers while, what appears to be the majority, have a deep central fuller on both sides ?
The reason for the questions is that I have a number of these weapons which I am hoping to research.
Regards
Miguel

[Henk]

Miguel, pictures give the knowledgeable members the information they need to give you the answers.

[Rick]

I think this ground has been covered before here .

A search of the site using those very key words just might unveil what you are looking for .

[Miguel]

Originally Posted by Henk

Miguel, pictures give the knowledgeable members the information they need to give you the answers.

Hi Henk,

Quite right but I have no photos as Yet due to the items being amongst other items in one of my storage boxes that I will be emptying to catalogue and research. When I doe this I will share photos of the items. I have had my weapon collection in storage for the last 15 to 20 years and have at last got some time to resea```````````````````````````````ch and catalogue them. I thought that if I asked the question in advance it would help to facilitate my research.
Miguel

[Miguel]

Originally Posted by Rick

I think this ground has been covered before here .

A search of the site using those very key words just might unveil what you are looking for .

Hi Rick,
I have searched other sites using the key words and am still confused, From my search so far, internet and ref books, I am led to believe that Kindjal is the term used in Russia whilst everywhere else uses the term Qama or a derivative of this term. There appears to be some confusion regarding the Qaddara which some sources say that it is the term used for a large kindjal or qama and others say that it is the name given to a curved kindjal. None of the sources provide info on difference in blade types and the characteristics that determine the country of origin except for Georgia and some Russian types. Thanks for pointing out this site, I should have known this. I look forward to further searching and hope that it helps clear up some if not all of my confusion.
Miguel

[Emanuel]

Hi Miguel,

The search function on this site is a treasure.

Here are two discussions to get you started

http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2956
http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2528

Emanuel

[Miguel]

Originally Posted by Emanuel

Hi Miguel,

The search function on this site is a treasure.

Here are two discussions to get you started

http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2956
http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2528

Emanuel

Hi Emanuel,
Thank you very much for those links, most helpful. I must apologise for not replying sooner, I have no excuse I just forgot please accept my apology. Miguel

[Miguel]

Originally Posted by Miguel

Hi Emanuel,
Thank you very much for those links, most helpful. I must apologise for not replying sooner, I have no excuse I just forgot please accept my apology. Miguel

Hi Emanuel,
Its me again, I forgot to mention that the opinion I formed is that they are all Kindjals except in Georgia where they are Qamas, an over simplification I know but it does for me. Miguel

[Miguel]

Originally Posted by Henk

Miguel, pictures give the knowledgeable members the information they need to give you the answers.

Hi Henk,
Here are some photos of the Kindjals, Qamas And Quaddara? that I finally rooted out of my storage boxes. They all in need various amounts of TLC but I hope that there is shown enough detail for the more knowledgeable members of the Forum to be able to Comment as to where they originate from in the Caucasus and the meanings of the blade stamps and inscriptions on some of them.

No 1:- Brass cast hilt Scalloped double edged blade .
Overall Length 18.5 ins, blade length 13.5 ins x 1.25 ins wide.

No 2:- Horn hilt with large double edged blade having a long almost round point.
Overall length 24.5 ins, blade length 19 ins x 1.75 ins wide.

No 3:- Horn hilt with double edged blade having Islamic writing. No scabbard.
Overall length 20.5 ins, blade length 16 ins x 1.5 ins wide.

No 4:- Horn hilt with double edged blade having a two moons and three stars deep blade stamp on one side. No scabbard.
Overall length 20.75 ins, blade length 15.25 ins x 1.5 ins wide

No 5:- Horn hilt with brass rivets and having a slightly curved single edged blade with three fullers and a n 8 lobed blade stamp, no scabbard.
Overall length 29 ins, blade length 23 ins x 1.5 ins wide.

No 6:- Silver hilt and scabbard profusely decorated, back of scabbard near throat having a Russian 84 silver assay mark fro Odessa or Don With Female head facing right signifying 1908 to 1926 also silversmiths stamp of a backward facing LN. Double edged blade having llers.
Overall length 18 ins, blade length 13.5 ins x 1.25 ins wide.

No 7:- Silver and horn hilt and leather covered wooden scabbard with silver locket and chape having worn decoration. Cartouche with what could be Arabic script on back of locket. Double edged blade with single fuller and moon and two stars deep blade stamp.
Overall length 21.25 ins, blade length 16.75 ins x 1.5 ins wide.

Your comments would be appreciated.
Thanking you in advance.
Miguel

[Miguel]

Nos 5 and 6

[Miguel]

No 7

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Miguel

Hi everyone,
I would like to pose the following questions.
1-When is a kindjal a Quama or Quaddara or vice versa ?
2- How can you tell the country of origin ?
3- Why do some blades have a flat diamond section devoid of fillers while, what appears to be the majority, have a deep central fuller on both sides ?
The reason for the questions is that I have a number of these weapons which I am hoping to research.
Regards
Miguel

Miquel, Dr. Manouchehr Moshtagh Khorasani says this.

In the West there is a controversy regarding the terminology. Some people call single-edged Kinjals or Qamma and to the big double-edged Kinjals Qaddara.

Please note in Iran they call double edged ones Qammas and they come with or without fullers and single edged ones Qaddara. The teminology is very very consistent in Iran everwhere I went the same one.

Labadonsky entertains the notion that Qamma comes from Akenakes, in Iran people say the same as well!

[Emanuel]

Well done Miguel!
The acquisition bug got you

[Miguel]

Originally Posted by estcrh

Miquel, Dr. Manouchehr Moshtagh Khorasani says this.

Hi Estcrh,

Thanks for your reply. Since my original post I followed yours and other members who replied kind advice and agree with your recent reply. What I cannot do is to decide which part of the Caucasus the various designs come from particularly the plain ones as I do not have the necessary knowledge and after a lot of research am still in the dark.

Regards

Miguel

[Miguel]

Originally Posted by Emanuel

Well done Miguel!
The acquisition bug got you

Hi Emanuel,

Thanks for the reply. I have had the collecting bug for more years than I care to remember and it never seems to diminish

Regards

Miguel

[Miguel]

Hi Everyone,

I cant help feeling disappointed at the lack of response to my questions re the photos of my Kindjals that I recently posted obviously they are not interesting enough for comment, very disappointing

Miguel

[arsendaday]

Originally Posted by Miguel

Hi Everyone,

I cant help feeling disappointed at the lack of response to my questions re the photos of my Kindjals that I recently posted obviously they are not interesting enough for comment, very disappointing

Miguel

Hi Miguel

The kindjals that you posted are great ones and I love them all. The answer to the question: which part of the Caucasus they are from, is never going to be correct. Not only the styles and the designs have been borrowed and used everywhere in the Caucasus, but also every Caucasian will tell you that his country/region/town/village is the one that invented everything in the Caucasus, and sometimes in the world I can try to tell you my observations about the kindjals that you have. I call them kindjals, because this is what Russians call them (wrongly), but this way there will be no arguing about them being called a qama, khanchal or ghama.

#1 with the brass handle and modified blade. The blade could have originally been Caucasian, but was modified and the hilt was added most likely in Turkey, less likely in Persia, unless it is a fake one. Hard to tell from the photo.
#2, 3 and 4 definitely kindjals made in the Caucasus, the silver one most likely in Daghestan.
#5 is different. It is what could be called qaddara and most likely than not, made in Isfahan Persia. IMHO the reason it has a Caucasian handle, is because it was originally made by the Isfahan Armenians (who were deported there from Caucasus by Shah Abbas starting from AD 1604) and they kept the design i.e. continued making it the way they knew and just made it longer. (Also the shorter version is described as an Armenian kindjal/knife by Astvatsaturian in her "Weapons of the Caucasus" book, I will post a photo of the shorter Caucasian/Armenian version as soon as I get it.) BTW the name qaddara has an Indo-European root of of the word "cut". I.e. qaddara is the same as cutter-a (This is my own observation. All the other opinions are welcome, especially Farsi speakers'.)
#6 Kindjal made in Georgia (80%)
#7 Kindjal made in Chechnia or Daghestan 50% - 50%
As I said I can tell you if they were made in Caucasus (Including Transcaucasia) or not, but even that would not be 100% correct, as these daggers were very popular and even after the decline of the bladed weapon usage, they were and still are being made all over Caucasus, Middle East, Russia and even India out of all places. I am trying to gain a lot of information about the these kindjals myself and I will start a thread myself as soon as I am 90% certain about all the information that I have.

P.S. I will elaborate on the subject of the kindjals' origins separately, but one thing I can tell you for sure, these did not originate from Scythian akinakes.

[arsendaday]

Originally Posted by Miguel

1-When is a kindjal a Quama or Quaddara or vice versa ?
2- How can you tell the country of origin ?
3- Why do some blades have a flat diamond section devoid of fillers while, what appears to be the majority, have a deep central fuller on both sides ?

1- A Kindjal (i.e Russian name for daggers) is a qama (kghama to be exact) when it is in Georgia or Chercassia, kindjal in Russia and Russian speaking countires, khanchal in Armenia. Qaddara on the other hand is not a kindjal at all. It is a single edged, longer weapon, native to modern day Iran, originating from Isfahan.

2- Country of origin - I think even the God is confused about this by now. But on a more serious note sometimes, especially in the later examples there are silver probes that point to the city of manufacture (at least of the silver parts).

3- This one I know for sure. The "diamond section devoid of fillers" (it is fullers BTW not fillers) is done when the kindjal is believed to be used a lot in the battles and the wielder is a strong, big guy, who doesn't care about the weight of the kindjal. This is also the original design of the kindjals. The whole purpose of the fullers is to make the kindjal lighter (or any other bladed weapon for that matter). The "battle" kindjals have one fuller on each side of the blade which are off centered, because this way you can make them really deep, i.e. the blade will be much lighter, without compromising the structural integrity of the dagger. (a very smart move on part of Caucasians I think) There are a lot of kindjals that have two, three or four fullers on each side of the blade (I have even seen five fuller-ed kindjal. It is very rear and unusual, but nevertheless very beautiful). Most of these are not intended for battle (even though they can definitely be used in one if the need arises) and are showpieces and were more expensive to make, intended to show the social standing of the owner. The blades of these kindjals were usually inscribed with silver or gold and damascened and/or etched with elaborate figures and designs. The handles and scabbards were usually made partially or entirely from silver (rarely from gold) incorporating ivory, precious stones and enamel.

Sometimes a kindjal would take months to be completed and there where entire villages that were completely involved in just making kindjals, or even parts of kindjals. Starting at the age of 8 - 10 a Caucasian was never without his kindjal, not even at home or while visiting friends or family. Everyone was able to use a kindjal in the battle and they were really good at it too. At night the kindjal was placed within the reach. And most of the times they were family heirlooms, passing from one generation to the next and so on. At some point in history of the Caucasus, as a result of rebellions and revolts, most of the kindjals were confiscated and/or destroyed by the Czarist Russian first, and then the Soviet governments. The very little that was left was hidden away and most of those were forgotten and lost and the rest got ruined, because of the lack of care and poor/moist weather conditions. That is one of the reasons that there are almost no early examples left (earlier than 18th century at least).

So as you can see now, you have very precious and really beautiful pieces of history and it is no surprise (at least to me ) that you are curious to find out as much as you can about these beauties.

The photo is of a finely made early 19th century Armenian Khanchal (kindjal).

[arsendaday]

Also here is a link to my Qaddara a.k.a. my "first bladed weapon" (other than army of various knives) and the bacteria that infected me with "Sword Collection" disease.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...persian+qaddar

[arsendaday]

Originally Posted by arsendaday

#6 Kindjal made in Georgia (80%)

I didn't see the hallmark on this one before. Judging by the hallmark this was made in Russian Don region. 100%. The style of course is Caucasian, and that got me confused.

[mariusgmioc]

Qama/Quama/Kama is the Persian/Georgian/Turkish name and Kindjal is the Russian name FOR EXACTLY THE SAME WEAPON.

Many authors without thorough knowledge of the languages of the Caucasus area, make the mistake of considering the Qama and the Kindjal two diferent weapons, but THEY ARE NOT.

I researched this subject extensively and cross-checked it with my knowledgeable Persian, Georgian and Daghestani friends and the Daghestani Kindjal is absolutely identical in its caracterizing features to the Georgian Qama.

[Miguel]

Originally Posted by arsendaday

Hi Miguel

The kindjals that you posted are great ones and I love them all. The answer to the question: which part of the Caucasus they are from, is never going to be correct. Not only the styles and the designs have been borrowed and used everywhere in the Caucasus, but also every Caucasian will tell you that his country/region/town/village is the one that invented everything in the Caucasus, and sometimes in the world I can try to tell you my observations about the kindjals that you have. I call them kindjals, because this is what Russians call them (wrongly), but this way there will be no arguing about them being called a qama, khanchal or ghama.

#1 with the brass handle and modified blade. The blade could have originally been Caucasian, but was modified and the hilt was added most likely in Turkey, less likely in Persia, unless it is a fake one. Hard to tell from the photo.
#2, 3 and 4 definitely kindjals made in the Caucasus, the silver one most likely in Daghestan.
#5 is different. It is what could be called qaddara and most likely than not, made in Isfahan Persia. IMHO the reason it has a Caucasian handle, is because it was originally made by the Isfahan Armenians (who were deported there from Caucasus by Shah Abbas starting from AD 1604) and they kept the design i.e. continued making it the way they knew and just made it longer. (Also the shorter version is described as an Armenian kindjal/knife by Astvatsaturian in her "Weapons of the Caucasus" book, I will post a photo of the shorter Caucasian/Armenian version as soon as I get it.) BTW the name qaddara has an Indo-European root of of the word "cut". I.e. qaddara is the same as cutter-a (This is my own observation. All the other opinions are welcome, especially Farsi speakers'.)
#6 Kindjal made in Georgia (80%)
#7 Kindjal made in Chechnia or Daghestan 50% - 50%
As I said I can tell you if they were made in Caucasus (Including Transcaucasia) or not, but even that would not be 100% correct, as these daggers were very popular and even after the decline of the bladed weapon usage, they were and still are being made all over Caucasus, Middle East, Russia and even India out of all places. I am trying to gain a lot of information about the these kindjals myself and I will start a thread myself as soon as I am 90% certain about all the information that I have.

P.S. I will elaborate on the subject of the kindjals' origins separately, but one thing I can tell you for sure, these did not originate from Scythian akinakes.

Hi Arsendade.

Thank you so much for taking the time out to respond to my post it is much appreciated. Your comments and observations are most informative and valuable to me as I have little knowledge of these weapons or the Caucasus. I had been carrying out some research but seemed to be going round in circles as I found the information I gleaned from the many and various sites that I visited to be very conflicting so your comments were most refreshing. I do not know how the photos became out of sequence with my comments but Kindjal No 4 is shown before No 3 And two of No 6 are shown out of sequence also. I had made some guesses my self but without your obvious knowledge and am quite pleased that some of my guesses agree with some of yours, I guessed the following:-

No 1:- Fake or Tourist piece, No 2:- Chechen due to its long armour piercing point ? No 3:- Didn't know, No 4 :- I thought maybe Dagestan due to its having a similar style blade stamp to No 7 which I also thought may be Dagestan , No 5 :- I thought that this may be Persian or Kazakstan and No 6 :- I was not sure whether it was Georgian or Russian as it has the Don assay stamp.
It would be very nice now if someone in the Forum could translate the script on the blade and scabbard and if someone could shed any light on the blade stamps as I have spent a lot of time trying to find out without success.
Thank you again for your reply.
Kind regards
Miguel

[Miguel]

I have found out more about Kindjals in these latest replies than I have done in all the time I have spent giving myself a headache on the web.
I particularly wish to thank Arsendaday for your most informative replies and for sharing the photo of the Kindjal with the superb blade and your Quaddara post showing your Quaddara which looks to be better quality than mine. I also wish to apologise to you for miss-spelling your name in my first reply to you. Finally with regard to the collecting disease I am afraid there is no cure.

I would also like to thank Mariusgmioc for his comments which cut through all the confusion of names.

Thank you.

Miguel

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by Miguel

Finally with regard to the collecting disease I am afraid there is no cure.

Miguel

Then I am doomed!

PS: Try getting "Arms and Armor of Caucasus," by Kirill A Rivkin. It's the best reference on this topic... and beautifully illustrated as well... while still available!

[Miguel]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Then I am doomed!

PS: Try getting "Arms and Armor of Caucasus," by Kirill A Rivkin. It's the best reference on this topic... and beautifully illustrated as well... while still available!

I am afraid so, terrifying isn't it Thanks for the tip about the book, I have already got it on my list as ariel was singing its praises some weeks ago.
Miguel

[arsendaday]

Originally Posted by Arsendaday

Also the shorter version is described as an Armenian kindjal/knife by Astvatsaturian in her "Weapons of the Caucasus" book, I will post a photo of the shorter Caucasian/Armenian version as soon as I get it.

Here is the photo of what I consider a shorter version of Qaddara. (Note the fullers and the maker mark). This is a single edge, triple (more if you count the narrow lines) fullered knife with silver rivets and Caucasian type horn handle. The rivets on the handle have been replaced at a later time IMHO and were installed on the wrong side. (Unless the wielder was a leftie and this was a special order, which I highly doubt) The scabbard is missing When I bought this knife it came in a Caucasian Kindjal scabbard. I think it left the Caucasus that way. As you can see it doesn't even fit the scabbard. So again somebody just took the knife and stuck it in the first scabbard they got their hands onto. The scabbard BTW is for a Russian KKV (Kuban Cossack Warriors) Kindjal. I will post photos later.
The only other daggers fullered this way and of this size are Surmene Daggers, but they have very distinctive handles and blades (last photo and also check this link: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=933)

So I consider this the Caucasian ancestor of Persian/Isfahan Qaddara.

P.S. I welcome all feedback on this knife.

[arsendaday]

Here are the photos.

[Emanuel]

Hi Arsen,

The last knife you posted is a Surmene knife from Trabzon. Probably they all have similar ancestry as Qaddara, a single edged Qama of some kind.

My understanding has always been that kindjal are double-edged daggers and short-swords, Qaddara are single edged Persian sword versions of the kindjal, and qama may be single or double-edged variations of the kindjal.

Emanuel

[Miguel]

Originally Posted by Miguel

I have found out more about Kindjals in these latest replies than I have done in all the time I have spent giving myself a headache on the web.
I particularly wish to thank Arsendaday for your most informative replies and for sharing the photo of the Kindjal with the superb blade and your Quaddara post showing your Quaddara which looks to be better quality than mine. I also wish to apologise to you for miss-spelling your name in my first reply to you. Finally with regard to the collecting disease I am afraid there is no cure.

I would also like to thank Mariusgmioc for his comments which cut through all the confusion of names.

Thank you.

Miguel

What I forgot to add was that I am surprised no one has recognised any of the blade stamps or interpreted the inscriptions which I would have thought were fairly common on weapons of this type from the Caucasus.
Kind regards
Miguel