13th century sword mystery

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Hotspur

Thoughts about the inscription from others

Some think it may say, in ancient Welsh, "No Cover shall be over me." as though it was never meant to be scabarded, always out and ready to fight.
From the discussion at various links.


Interesting

Not unlike what we see of later terms such as
"No me saques sin razon; no me enbaines sin honor"
"Draw me not without reason; sheath me not without honor"

It is also not unlike some biblical scripture, which is what many are considering. Gloat not over me my enemy, etc

Cheers

GC

Salaams Hotspur ...Yes it could be old Welsh but...as the report goes on to say...there is more to this than meets the eye.

Please see http://www.gizmodo.co.uk/2015/08/can...ear-old-sword/

For example the W from one persons perspective wrote..


Quote ''Any symbology that might appear on that side is very important. From an alphabet perspective, I was immediately struck by the inclusion of the letter W as it wasn’t in general use in that form until some point during the 14th century when it began shifting from begin written as the the digraph to being written as the ligature more frequently as the 15th and 16th centuries approached. I don’t think I would have stopped if it weren’t in the form it is in. In the early versions of the W ligature it is most commonly written as two V’s whose legs cross over each other. Time and scribal laziness eventually eliminate the crossed sections for ease of writing. This particular W letter form has an apex that is half the height of the arms of the W letter suggesting that the engraving was added nearer the 15 or 16th century. It is important to note that the W letter form is used natively in: German, Dutch, English, Welsh, Polish, Walloon and Maltese.

Most romance languages including the Latin of the day did not use the W.
One particularly interesting note, from Marc van Hasselt of Utrecht University’s Hastatus Heritage Consultancy, explained how similar swords have been found all over Europe, bearing similarly inscrutable phrases. According to Hasselt, it seems the “most likely” that the inscriptions are in Latin, though:

Using the excellent research by Thomas Wagner and John Worley, an image of a hugely successful medieval workshop was created, making ‘magical’ swords for the elite. The swords themselves are of a high quality, but what most catches the eye are the inscriptions. Both their mysterious contents and the similarities in the lettering are striking. A sword from Sweden might use the same slightly curved X as the River Witham sword. A sword currently in Berlin has an I-S contraction also used on a sword found in the Netherlands. These similarities go so far as to suggest the same hand in making the inscriptions.

However, their contents are still a mystery, regardless of their origins".Unquote.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Hotspur]

Hello Ibrahiim

I think I post on the train of thought that a simple phrase the most likely translation we will find.

I agree with Lee on his impression that the sword is not unlikely to be of a later century. While Oakeshott lists this sword as a type X, it is truly as easily placed in a type XVI category, or even a tweener of a XIV, or XVII for that matter. I believe it is in Oakeshott's later book (Age of Chivalry) he starts to question his own earlier categorizing and dating. I'll be honest, I own only his first title and Records, on which all now seem to attribute "truth" to this particular sword. I look at this sword and see it easily 14th if not even 15th century work.

My own focus of swords is a mere few decades of early modern swords, and further narrowed to eagle pommel swords of the US market. As many times as types and origins of those have been pigeonholed, not just trends but reuse of favored styles often need reassessment.

As to prettier and emblazoned swords belonging to the rich and famous, of course. A peasant grade sword in England during the XIVth century could be had for a few weeks wages if a freeman. Also by that time, barrels of blades imported, manifested and registered and taxed in the port of London. So many arms and armour imported into England that there was concern and laws made restricting trade by the XVth century. In that regard, I see no great mystery that a sword found in an English river (inscribed or not) mirrors swords found on the continent.

Cheers

GC

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Hotspur

Hello Ibrahiim

I think I post on the train of thought that a simple phrase the most likely translation we will find.

I agree with Lee on his impression that the sword is not unlikely to be of a later century. While Oakeshott lists this sword as a type X, it is truly as easily placed in a type XVI category, or even a tweener of a XIV, or XVII for that matter. I believe it is in Oakeshott's later book (Age of Chivalry) he starts to question his own earlier categorizing and dating. I'll be honest, I own only his first title and Records, on which all now seem to attribute "truth" to this particular sword. I look at this sword and see it easily 14th if not even 15th century work.

My own focus of swords is a mere few decades of early modern swords, and further narrowed to eagle pommel swords of the US market. As many times as types and origins of those have been pigeonholed, not just trends but reuse of favored styles often need reassessment.

As to prettier and emblazoned swords belonging to the rich and famous, of course. A peasant grade sword in England during the XIVth century could be had for a few weeks wages if a freeman. Also by that time, barrels of blades imported, manifested and registered and taxed in the port of London. So many arms and armour imported into England that there was concern and laws made restricting trade by the XVth century. In that regard, I see no great mystery that a sword found in an English river (inscribed or not) mirrors swords found on the continent.

Cheers

GC

Yes I agree it could be of a later century as detailed in my previous post in particular regarding the W detail...in paragraph 1 and 2 and I also line up with the possibility of it being linked to swords found on the continent in paragraph 3... noted in my previous post taken mainly from the website http://www.gizmodo.co.uk/2015/08/can...ear-old-sword/

[Hotspur]

Yes, so we are agreeing with much of what is posted, reposted and reposted across the net this past month or so with the same links posted over and over.

Cheers

GC

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Hotspur

Yes, so we are agreeing with much of what is posted, reposted and reposted across the net this past month or so with the same links posted over and over.

Cheers

GC

Oh which link was that ...I may have missed it?

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams all... Another sword comes to hand...or view at http://siberiantimes.com/science/cas...-the-terrible/

Members are urged to consider this one please.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

The Sword of Ivan the Terrible or....?

Salaams all...On rereading Heraldic Symbols I am reminded of the shorthand nature of that entire structure but I am also inclined to use the same analogy on blade inscriptions... Mediaeval Shorthand. What I find amazing(and there are many amazing twists with these blades ) is that there appears to be a network; perhaps a monastic linkage across vast regions where it seems sword-makers possibly attached or part of the clergy moved with freedom practicing their art-form ..was this a way of funding a particular religious body?...was this done to fund religious visits/pilgrimages?...or was the work done in different countries and regions by sometimes the same craftsman purely a co incidental affair?...I doubt the latter.

Since I harp on about shorthand here is what the report at reference says about the script...

Quote"The main inscription reads: N[omine] M[atris] N[ostri] S[alva]t[ORis] Et[eRni] D[omini] S[alvatoRis] E[teRni], with an additional one on the same side of the blade saying C[hRis]t[us] Ih[esus] C[hRis]t[us]. This means:'In the name of the mother of our saviour eternal, eternal Lord and Saviour. Christ Jesus Christ.'

The inscription on the reverse side is harder to read, but the first word 'NOMENE' - clearly seen - helps reconstruct the rest as 'N[omine] O[mnipotentis]. M[ateR]. E[teRni] N[omin]e', which means 'In the name of the Almighty. The Mother of God. In the name of Eternal".Unquote.


Applying that key to the project sword here at #3 gives a similar string that will decode to illustrate a religious incantation or saying which you can all have a go at...

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.