Omani barrel.

Pukka Bundook · 25th August 2015, 04:05 PM

Good morning Rick,

I believe Ibrahiim has shown pictures of some of these blown and shortened barrels, and the rear part has been turned into a short barrel of maybe 15 inches in length.
I think what Ibrahiim means by the first joint, is where the first ribbon of steel, (or the first tube, depending on how the barrel was constructed) is joined to the second barrel section.
This old manner of making barrels was often used in Spain, and was a very sound practice....they rarely blew apart in proof or afterwards.
The tubes were overlapped, and forge -welded in place.

If Ibrahiim could confirm this, it would help us see through this murky subject much better!
Re. breech-plugs;
In Manouchehr's very good articles on Persian arms in Classic Firearms, he says that in Persia, the screwed in breech-plug was not trusted, and that they much preferred a soldered(!) in plug, or one forge-welded in place.
I believe he also said that Western barrel imported into Persia, often had the threaded plug removed and one welded in instead. I think this will mean thet even though these Persian barrels have tangs, they will not normally be threaded in place.

Best wishes,
Richard.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 26th August 2015, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

Good morning Rick,

I believe Ibrahiim has shown pictures of some of these blown and shortened barrels, and the rear part has been turned into a short barrel of maybe 15 inches in length.
I think what Ibrahiim means by the first joint, is where the first ribbon of steel, (or the first tube, depending on how the barrel was constructed) is joined to the second barrel section.
This old manner of making barrels was often used in Spain, and was a very sound practice....they rarely blew apart in proof or afterwards.
The tubes were overlapped, and forge -welded in place.

If Ibrahiim could confirm this, it would help us see through this murky subject much better!
Re. breech-plugs;
In Manouchehr's very good articles on Persian arms in Classic Firearms, he says that in Persia, the screwed in breech-plug was not trusted, and that they much preferred a soldered(!) in plug, or one forge-welded in place.
I believe he also said that Western barrel imported into Persia, often had the threaded plug removed and one welded in instead. I think this will mean thet even though these Persian barrels have tangs, they will not normally be threaded in place.

Best wishes,
Richard.

Salaams Pukka Bundook ~ Sorry for the delay I was in Casablanca ! My couple examples of blown barrels are shown at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...ight=Omani+Guns . I have another not shown...will try for a picture if it is still in my store,....of a blown example which was stuffed apparently with gunpowder and thrown in a fire by some children who then ran off...luckily as the entire barrel is blown apart ....I agree that the barrels I show are simply parted company with the rest of the barrel rather than blown off... Some people have used these short lengths as short barrels as examples of childrens guns or even as some sort of pistol arrangements ...completely wrongly in my view but it is amazing what people will buy !...Regarding the stamp...I believe these are makers stamps...and I also agree that the majority of barrels in Oman are of Persian make...though Icoman suggest there are also German variants...

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

rickystl · 29th August 2015, 07:24 PM

Hello all.
OK. Now I understand. A two-piece barrel joined together by forge welding. That makes sense. So the barrels appear to have become dis-joined or seperated at the weld when forced to endure the worst possible stress conditions (over loaded, multiple loads, bore obstruction, etc.). That first ring, or joint where the two pieces overlap, would be the weak spot in the barrel, if forced to burst.
I'm sure these barrels would be unlikely to burst with NORMAL loads of black powder and soft lead balls. But even a one-piece steel barrel can fail if improperly loaded and/or forced to submit to excess stess.
Thanks for the knowledge here and an interesting Thread.
Rick.

Pukka Bundook · 29th January 2017, 04:52 PM

Update to this old thread;
Having now two barrels of this type in hand, the barrel interiors have a somewhat constricted breech for the last few inches, and do not open out into a larger powder chamber as we so often encounter on Torador barrels.
Both barrels are a joy to look at, and are very slim and beautifully made. Both will be stocked up, (as time permits!)

Best,
Richard.

rickystl · 29th January 2017, 06:40 PM

Hi Richard.

One day, one of these barrels will come my way. LOL

The slightly restricted area the last few inches towards the breech is interesting. I just wonder what their thinking was in regards to ballistics. Hmmm. The more I seem to learn about these barrels, the more confused I become. LOL !!

If you get a chance, please post some photos.
The re-stocking should make for an interesting project. For sure, they have to be the most beautiful looking barrels I've ever seen. Imagine the man hours that went into making just one barrel. Boggles the mind. Again, congrats on receiving them.

Rick

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 29th January 2017, 10:51 PM

One aspect of loading these barrels springs to mind... The ammunition. These round lead balls were rammed so hard down the barrel that they became elongated ...ironically more like the shape of modern bullets. The most common cause of barrels parting was the use of modern powder often using the contents of Martini Henry ammo..coupled with ramming some sort of plug or bullet down the barrel making the breach create too much pressure and the resulting barrel parting at the first join...or worse the catastrophic disintegration of the entire breach section and peeling back of the entire gun barrel at that point

Pukka Bundook · 30th January 2017, 04:24 AM

Salaams Ibrahiim,

The parting of these barrels is a puzzlement to me, but well understand that a modern nitro powder is more than capable of such destruction.

These are the barrels that Robin Wiggington said were from "another part of India " when addressing two such barrels in Tipu Sultan's collection.
(Stocked up actually in a more modern European style, with snapping mechanisms and self-opening pans!)
Elgood believes Persian, though.

What I Do Not understand is;
Why do we not see these barrels on Persian arms, (correct me if I am wrong)
Or on Indian arms very often? I know of the two previously mentioned in Tipu Sultan's armoury, and One other from Sind, stocked in the Afghan style.
One would imagine wherever they came from before being traded into Oman, there would have been Some of them left in the country of origin.

Of interest is the fact that the cartouches in Tipu's barrels had Also been removed, so these and the ones you have Ibrahiim, may have had said cartouches removed for a Very long time!
Question if I may Ibrahiim;
Have you seen any of these barrels with the silver cartouche still in place?

Thank you for your time.
Richard.

25th August 2015, 04:05 PM	#1
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Good morning Rick, I believe Ibrahiim has shown pictures of some of these blown and shortened barrels, and the rear part has been turned into a short barrel of maybe 15 inches in length. I think what Ibrahiim means by the first joint, is where the first ribbon of steel, (or the first tube, depending on how the barrel was constructed) is joined to the second barrel section. This old manner of making barrels was often used in Spain, and was a very sound practice....they rarely blew apart in proof or afterwards. The tubes were overlapped, and forge -welded in place. If Ibrahiim could confirm this, it would help us see through this murky subject much better! Re. breech-plugs; In Manouchehr's very good articles on Persian arms in Classic Firearms, he says that in Persia, the screwed in breech-plug was not trusted, and that they much preferred a soldered(!) in plug, or one forge-welded in place. I believe he also said that Western barrel imported into Persia, often had the threaded plug removed and one welded in instead. I think this will mean thet even though these Persian barrels have tangs, they will not normally be threaded in place. Best wishes, Richard.

29th August 2015, 07:24 PM	#3
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,633	Hello all. OK. Now I understand. A two-piece barrel joined together by forge welding. That makes sense. So the barrels appear to have become dis-joined or seperated at the weld when forced to endure the worst possible stress conditions (over loaded, multiple loads, bore obstruction, etc.). That first ring, or joint where the two pieces overlap, would be the weak spot in the barrel, if forced to burst. I'm sure these barrels would be unlikely to burst with NORMAL loads of black powder and soft lead balls. But even a one-piece steel barrel can fail if improperly loaded and/or forced to submit to excess stess. Thanks for the knowledge here and an interesting Thread. Rick.

29th January 2017, 04:52 PM	#4
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Update to this old thread; Having now two barrels of this type in hand, the barrel interiors have a somewhat constricted breech for the last few inches, and do not open out into a larger powder chamber as we so often encounter on Torador barrels. Both barrels are a joy to look at, and are very slim and beautifully made. Both will be stocked up, (as time permits!) Best, Richard.

29th January 2017, 06:40 PM	#5
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,633	Hi Richard. One day, one of these barrels will come my way. LOL The slightly restricted area the last few inches towards the breech is interesting. I just wonder what their thinking was in regards to ballistics. Hmmm. The more I seem to learn about these barrels, the more confused I become. LOL !! If you get a chance, please post some photos. The re-stocking should make for an interesting project. For sure, they have to be the most beautiful looking barrels I've ever seen. Imagine the man hours that went into making just one barrel. Boggles the mind. Again, congrats on receiving them. Rick

29th January 2017, 10:51 PM	#6
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	One aspect of loading these barrels springs to mind... The ammunition. These round lead balls were rammed so hard down the barrel that they became elongated ...ironically more like the shape of modern bullets. The most common cause of barrels parting was the use of modern powder often using the contents of Martini Henry ammo..coupled with ramming some sort of plug or bullet down the barrel making the breach create too much pressure and the resulting barrel parting at the first join...or worse the catastrophic disintegration of the entire breach section and peeling back of the entire gun barrel at that point

30th January 2017, 04:24 AM	#7
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Salaams Ibrahiim, The parting of these barrels is a puzzlement to me, but well understand that a modern nitro powder is more than capable of such destruction. These are the barrels that Robin Wiggington said were from "another part of India " when addressing two such barrels in Tipu Sultan's collection. (Stocked up actually in a more modern European style, with snapping mechanisms and self-opening pans!) Elgood believes Persian, though. What I Do Not understand is; Why do we not see these barrels on Persian arms, (correct me if I am wrong) Or on Indian arms very often? I know of the two previously mentioned in Tipu Sultan's armoury, and One other from Sind, stocked in the Afghan style. One would imagine wherever they came from before being traded into Oman, there would have been Some of them left in the country of origin. Of interest is the fact that the cartouches in Tipu's barrels had Also been removed, so these and the ones you have Ibrahiim, may have had said cartouches removed for a Very long time! Question if I may Ibrahiim; Have you seen any of these barrels with the silver cartouche still in place? Thank you for your time. Richard.