Omani barrel.

David R · 21st August 2015, 06:38 PM

Bursting is often caused by a blockage rather than overloading. I would suspect multiple loads, as in the shooter didn't realise the previous one had not gone off............ I loaned a musket out to an inexperienced shooter for a re-enactment once, never again. I had to extract 3 unfired blank rounds when I got it back off him.

Pukka Bundook · 21st August 2015, 08:35 PM

David,

Yes, an air-space/gap between powder and projectile will do it, but it still sounds odd that Ibrahiim has seen quite a few that let go all at the same place, described as the first joint. (Apparently about 1/3 of the way from breech to muzzle) I have no good idea why this should be a consistent place to blow.

Best wishes,
Richard.

rickystl · 24th August 2015, 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

David,

Yes, an air-space/gap between powder and projectile will do it, but it still sounds odd that Ibrahiim has seen quite a few that let go all at the same place, described as the first joint. (Apparently about 1/3 of the way from breech to muzzle) I have no good idea why this should be a consistent place to blow.

Best wishes,
Richard.

Hi Richard.
It is unusual for these barrels to burst in the same location, the so called first ring each time. Hmmmm. I'm wondering if these Omani barrels have a larger breech chamber as compared to the actual bore size at the muzzle end? Similar to the Torador barrels, which I'm convinced do have. If so, and the taper begins near that first ring, that might be the reason for the failure at that point. Improperly loaded, you could end up with a bore obstruction similar to what David mentions above. I've never seen one of these barrels first hand, but they appear to have a threaded breech plug. (?) If so, it would be interesting to remove the breech plug in one of these barrels to see if that's the case. A barrel that had been burst would be a good opportunity to try this. Meantime, a small piece of wire through the vent hole and measuring that length (less the barrel wall thickness) and comparing it to the bore size at the muzzle end might give you an idea. Just a thought.
Rick.

Pukka Bundook · 25th August 2015, 03:05 PM

Good morning Rick,

I believe Ibrahiim has shown pictures of some of these blown and shortened barrels, and the rear part has been turned into a short barrel of maybe 15 inches in length.
I think what Ibrahiim means by the first joint, is where the first ribbon of steel, (or the first tube, depending on how the barrel was constructed) is joined to the second barrel section.
This old manner of making barrels was often used in Spain, and was a very sound practice....they rarely blew apart in proof or afterwards.
The tubes were overlapped, and forge -welded in place.

If Ibrahiim could confirm this, it would help us see through this murky subject much better!
Re. breech-plugs;
In Manouchehr's very good articles on Persian arms in Classic Firearms, he says that in Persia, the screwed in breech-plug was not trusted, and that they much preferred a soldered(!) in plug, or one forge-welded in place.
I believe he also said that Western barrel imported into Persia, often had the threaded plug removed and one welded in instead. I think this will mean thet even though these Persian barrels have tangs, they will not normally be threaded in place.

Best wishes,
Richard.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 26th August 2015, 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

Good morning Rick,

I believe Ibrahiim has shown pictures of some of these blown and shortened barrels, and the rear part has been turned into a short barrel of maybe 15 inches in length.
I think what Ibrahiim means by the first joint, is where the first ribbon of steel, (or the first tube, depending on how the barrel was constructed) is joined to the second barrel section.
This old manner of making barrels was often used in Spain, and was a very sound practice....they rarely blew apart in proof or afterwards.
The tubes were overlapped, and forge -welded in place.

If Ibrahiim could confirm this, it would help us see through this murky subject much better!
Re. breech-plugs;
In Manouchehr's very good articles on Persian arms in Classic Firearms, he says that in Persia, the screwed in breech-plug was not trusted, and that they much preferred a soldered(!) in plug, or one forge-welded in place.
I believe he also said that Western barrel imported into Persia, often had the threaded plug removed and one welded in instead. I think this will mean thet even though these Persian barrels have tangs, they will not normally be threaded in place.

Best wishes,
Richard.

Salaams Pukka Bundook ~ Sorry for the delay I was in Casablanca ! My couple examples of blown barrels are shown at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...ight=Omani+Guns . I have another not shown...will try for a picture if it is still in my store,....of a blown example which was stuffed apparently with gunpowder and thrown in a fire by some children who then ran off...luckily as the entire barrel is blown apart ....I agree that the barrels I show are simply parted company with the rest of the barrel rather than blown off... Some people have used these short lengths as short barrels as examples of childrens guns or even as some sort of pistol arrangements ...completely wrongly in my view but it is amazing what people will buy !...Regarding the stamp...I believe these are makers stamps...and I also agree that the majority of barrels in Oman are of Persian make...though Icoman suggest there are also German variants...

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

rickystl · 29th August 2015, 06:24 PM

Hello all.
OK. Now I understand. A two-piece barrel joined together by forge welding. That makes sense. So the barrels appear to have become dis-joined or seperated at the weld when forced to endure the worst possible stress conditions (over loaded, multiple loads, bore obstruction, etc.). That first ring, or joint where the two pieces overlap, would be the weak spot in the barrel, if forced to burst.
I'm sure these barrels would be unlikely to burst with NORMAL loads of black powder and soft lead balls. But even a one-piece steel barrel can fail if improperly loaded and/or forced to submit to excess stess.
Thanks for the knowledge here and an interesting Thread.
Rick.

Pukka Bundook · 29th January 2017, 03:52 PM

Update to this old thread;
Having now two barrels of this type in hand, the barrel interiors have a somewhat constricted breech for the last few inches, and do not open out into a larger powder chamber as we so often encounter on Torador barrels.
Both barrels are a joy to look at, and are very slim and beautifully made. Both will be stocked up, (as time permits!)

Best,
Richard.

21st August 2015, 06:38 PM	#1
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,119	Bursting is often caused by a blockage rather than overloading. I would suspect multiple loads, as in the shooter didn't realise the previous one had not gone off............ I loaned a musket out to an inexperienced shooter for a re-enactment once, never again. I had to extract 3 unfired blank rounds when I got it back off him.

21st August 2015, 08:35 PM	#2
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	David, Yes, an air-space/gap between powder and projectile will do it, but it still sounds odd that Ibrahiim has seen quite a few that let go all at the same place, described as the first joint. (Apparently about 1/3 of the way from breech to muzzle) I have no good idea why this should be a consistent place to blow. Best wishes, Richard.

25th August 2015, 03:05 PM	#4
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Good morning Rick, I believe Ibrahiim has shown pictures of some of these blown and shortened barrels, and the rear part has been turned into a short barrel of maybe 15 inches in length. I think what Ibrahiim means by the first joint, is where the first ribbon of steel, (or the first tube, depending on how the barrel was constructed) is joined to the second barrel section. This old manner of making barrels was often used in Spain, and was a very sound practice....they rarely blew apart in proof or afterwards. The tubes were overlapped, and forge -welded in place. If Ibrahiim could confirm this, it would help us see through this murky subject much better! Re. breech-plugs; In Manouchehr's very good articles on Persian arms in Classic Firearms, he says that in Persia, the screwed in breech-plug was not trusted, and that they much preferred a soldered(!) in plug, or one forge-welded in place. I believe he also said that Western barrel imported into Persia, often had the threaded plug removed and one welded in instead. I think this will mean thet even though these Persian barrels have tangs, they will not normally be threaded in place. Best wishes, Richard.

29th August 2015, 06:24 PM	#6
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,630	Hello all. OK. Now I understand. A two-piece barrel joined together by forge welding. That makes sense. So the barrels appear to have become dis-joined or seperated at the weld when forced to endure the worst possible stress conditions (over loaded, multiple loads, bore obstruction, etc.). That first ring, or joint where the two pieces overlap, would be the weak spot in the barrel, if forced to burst. I'm sure these barrels would be unlikely to burst with NORMAL loads of black powder and soft lead balls. But even a one-piece steel barrel can fail if improperly loaded and/or forced to submit to excess stess. Thanks for the knowledge here and an interesting Thread. Rick.

29th January 2017, 03:52 PM	#7
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Update to this old thread; Having now two barrels of this type in hand, the barrel interiors have a somewhat constricted breech for the last few inches, and do not open out into a larger powder chamber as we so often encounter on Torador barrels. Both barrels are a joy to look at, and are very slim and beautifully made. Both will be stocked up, (as time permits!) Best, Richard.