A Good Malay Sundang With One Piece Carved Horn Hilt

[Maurice]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hello Charles,

very nice Malay sundang. I have a picture in my database from a very, very similar piece. I first thought that it is the same one.
I don't remember if the hilt has been from horn or from tarnished silver.
This sundang has a baca-baca.

Regards,
Detlef

Nice sundang Charles!

The Malay sundang Detlef is refering to has a similar segments grip, covered with brass segments and silver wire. It has a horn pommel in the shape of a bird.
Maybe yours had brass or silver wire in the past too around the grip?

I will make a photo of the hilt within a few days for you as reference.

Kind regards,
Maurice

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Maurice

Nice sundang Charles!

The Malay sundang Detlef is refering to has a similar segments grip, covered with brass segments and silver wire. It has a horn pommel in the shape of a bird.
Maybe yours had brass or silver wire in the past too around the grip?

I will make a photo of the hilt within a few days for you as reference.

Kind regards,
Maurice

Hello Maurice,

congrats, great catch! Also the mandau is great!

Best regards,
Detlef

[Maurice]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hello Maurice,

congrats, great catch! Also the mandau is great!

Best regards,
Detlef

Thanks Detlef.

The sundang is very nice, but in this lot the mandau was my first priority...

Kind regards,
Maurice

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Maurice

Thanks Detlef.

The sundang is very nice, but in this lot the mandau was my first priority...

Kind regards,
Maurice

Hello Maurice,

when I remember correct it is special and a great piece, but my first priority was the sundang, great piece with the bird carved pommel!
Curious to see your pictures.

Best regards,
Detlef

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by Maurice

Maybe yours had brass or silver wire in the past too around the grip?

Kind regards,
Maurice

Maurice I really don't get the sense here that there was ever silver or brass grip segments or a silver ferrule here. I think the way it is...imitating those things...is exactly what the craftsman was going for.

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by CharlesS

Maurice I really don't get the sense here that there was ever silver or brass grip segments or a silver ferrule here. I think the way it is...imitating those things...is exactly what the craftsman was going for.

I too don't think is was ever covered based on the images as I think there should be more evidence within the horn surfaces of binding application and silver soldering, unless a skilled craftsman removed all evidence through proper polishing.

Gavin

[Maurice]

Originally Posted by CharlesS

Maurice I really don't get the sense here that there was ever silver or brass grip segments or a silver ferrule here. I think the way it is...imitating those things...is exactly what the craftsman was going for.

Charles, I never said there would be a silver ferrule.
I said, that maybe, (just maybe), there would be silver wire or segments on the grip, and I meant between the higher levels carving.

I agree with you the craftsman was imitating those things, but in between there could be some silverwire or brass segments for decoration or have a better grip.

But ofcourse maybe there never was, and it is just because I am used to see that on handles...

[Maurice]

Here the photos of the handle.
A small piece is damaged at the back of the handle.

[Ian]

Maurice:

That is a very interesting hilt! Thank you for posting this picture.

The pommel shows the clearest representation I have yet seen of a bird's head, crest and beak. For some time we have debated what the style of pommel on Charles' sword might represent. Some describe this as a kakatua (cockatoo), others have thought it might represent a sarimanok (a mythical chicken important in Maranao tradition).

Your example seems to be the "missing link" in terms of confirming that this does represent a bird's head with a sturdy beak and crest. The appearance of your example would better fit a cockatoo than a chicken IMO. Being such a realistic depiction prompts me to think that this may be a very early example of the style. Would you post a picture or two of the blade also. What do you estimate the age of this one to be?

Ian

[David]

So what is the general consensus on the purpose of the Malay Sundang. Was it more a weapon of war or a weapon of status. I ask because many if not most of these seem to either have no asang-asang or one that is purely decorative and doesn't connect to the hilt. Given the tang length and methods of attachment i an not sure that the weapon could be wielded well in battle as a slashing blade without the blade coming loose from the hilt.

[Gavin Nugent]

David,

I see the Sundang as both. They can certainly be used very efficiently for fighting and look pretty darn fine in quality dress.

The tang and fixing methods are no different to that of the Dha/Daab and they survive aok and remain unquestioned about their fighting ability.

I have and have had them with and without asang asang...personally I see little value for money in having these pieces attached to Kris and Sundang...

Gavin

[Maurice]

Originally Posted by David

So what is the general consensus on the purpose of the Malay Sundang. Was it more a weapon of war or a weapon of status. I ask because many if not most of these seem to either have no asang-asang or one that is purely decorative and doesn't connect to the hilt. Given the tang length and methods of attachment i an not sure that the weapon could be wielded well in battle as a slashing blade without the blade coming loose from the hilt.

I don't know for sure, but the several ones I came across with all had at least one stirrup, not only decorative ones.
Also the blades were very sharp, and most of them not so heavy as the average moro kris, but also very deadly in my eyes.

[Maurice]

Originally Posted by Ian

Being such a realistic depiction prompts me to think that this may be a very early example of the style. Would you post a picture or two of the blade also. What do you estimate the age of this one to be?

Ian

Thank you Ian.

Unfortunately I didn't manage to make some pictures of the blade also, as after I shot the photos of the hilt, I brought it to my restorer because the scabbard needs some care.
I'm sure it is very old, looking at the patina on the grip and the all over appearance.

Kind regards,
Maurice

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Maurice

Unfortunately I didn't manage to make some pictures of the blade also, as after I shot the photos of the hilt, I brought it to my restorer because the scabbard needs some care.
I'm sure it is very old, looking at the patina on the grip and the all over appearance.

Hello Maurice,

I still keep the auction pictures. When you don't mind I can post some of them!?

Best regards,
Detlef

[Spunjer]

Originally Posted by Ian

Your example seems to be the "missing link" in terms of confirming that this does represent a bird's head with a sturdy beak and crest. The appearance of your example would better fit a cockatoo than a chicken IMO. Being such a realistic depiction prompts me to think that this may be a very early example of the style.

Ian

hello Ian,
so how did you came to the conclusion that this could be the "missing link"? correct me if i'm wrong, but IMHO, this particular sundang is Malay, and not Moro, yes?
you're right in that it's not a sarimanok, but at the same time, it doesn't look like a cockatoo either. it looks more like a parrot, a popular motif outside of moroland

[Ian]

Hi Ron:

I was looking at both Maurice's and Charles' swords and noted that Charles' hilt has the traditional pommel that is sometimes called a kakatua. The pommel on Charles' sword has an abstractness of quite similar design to what we see on Moro hilts. I'm not suggesting that the Moro design is necessarily derived from the Malay form, but it is conceivable that this style originated to the south and was imported into the Moro territories where it evolved further. Unfortunately, the historical record is silent as to its origin or possible diffusion.

Then we have Maurice's hilt which bears a striking similarity in form to Charles' hilt, but Maurice's pommel is clearly a bird with a powerful hooked beak. I would propose that Maurice's version likely predated Charles', and that the more abstract form is depicted more realistically in Maurice's example. Now I don't know how old these two pieces are, and I don't think we will be able to find out their relative ages, but it seems reasonable to me to think that the more realistic representation preceded the more abstract form which is common today. This would be consistent with greater Islamic influence over time, with its emphasis on less realistic representations in art and spiritual matters.

Just what the bird on Maurice's hilt may be is also open to discussion, but the powerful beak could be from a raptor, parrot, cockatoo, or a number of other species. The fact that the head appears to have a crest rules out several species, which is why I said it more likely resembled a cockatoo than many of the other possibilities.

There seems to be an obvious hypothesis one could make from these observations. However, I don't want to hijack this thread by getting into the origins of the Moro kris and its hilt styles. Starting another thread may be the way to go.

Ian.