Odd Sword

Jim McDougall · 7th August 2015, 12:02 AM

I think that the investigative analysis that has evolved involving the blade which initiated this thread is fascinating, and it is truly impressive to see looks into various alphabets and characters in these mysterious letters.

It is important to note that these kinds of letter combinations and groupings have remarkably long history, and in decipherable, seemingly coded groups of letters extend into Anglo-Saxon history on some seaxs found. They are known on Frankish and Viking swords well into medieval times. It is generally held these are acrostic in nature, though other types of arrangements are known as well. In many cases, various sacerdotal and invocative phrases have been somewhat decoded.

In Italy, the Caino makers and Picinino seem to have favored these incongruent letter groupings in varied form. They seem to be used in what is known as reductive where each group of letters reduces by one, and in another line they are regrouped in anagram type arrangement. This seems to eliminate acrostic possibility, but it is virtually unimaginable how these can be meant. These kinds of groupings of course became well used in the German blade decoration along with other spurious marks etc.

What has presented the greatest obstacle in the plausible revealing of the meaning of many of these letter combinations and groupings has been the factoring in of many occult, esoteric and magical features. In cases, such as with cabbalistic potential, there are often integrated sigils and devices in the linear letter groups in acrostic setting, as well as those used with numeric value. The very secret nature of these of course makes anything beyond speculative suggestions virtually invalid.

We can of course observe the character of the lettering, devices or sigils, as well as the context in the blade form and features, just as been done here.

I think it has been well established that there is a great deal of the use of older and often European blades in refurbished traditional dress in certain locations in Oman just as a number of other locations.

The refurbishing of ethnographic swords by remounting blades in traditional dress seems well known in most cultures. Blades are a valuable commodity, and especially if they are heirloom. In the case of Arabian swords, it does seem that traditional forms are important in cultural and status sense, much as are janbiyya and other edged weapons.
As long as these weapons are openly regarded as 'refurbished' using old blade and new mounts, there is no issue. If a sword is 'refurbished' and passed off as homogenous and of noted antiquity, it is a problem.

If a blade is combined with incongruent other vintage components, unless those are heirloom items along with blade, or these have combined traditional significance, it seems OK as long as the elements combined are represented as 'composite'.

Here we are involved in the study of swords or weapons in most cases from a historic content, and if a weapon is refurbished without proper notice in description, it defeats and compromises the value of the weapon historically. It is understandable that such weapons are valued traditionally and as appropriate status symbols, but they should be so described.

Having said all that, what is important in this thread, is the discussion of the blade in #1, the subject of the thread, as well as the apparently incongruent pommel, noted as not originally with this blade.

The outstanding approach toward this inscription (in #1) is very insightful and helps a lot in perspective on these on blades. Whether we can find anything conclusive or not, the content of the factors brought into the discussion is fascinating and great to learn more!

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 8th August 2015, 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I think that the investigative analysis that has evolved involving the blade which initiated this thread is fascinating, and it is truly impressive to see looks into various alphabets and characters in these mysterious letters.

The outstanding approach toward this inscription (in #1) is very insightful and helps a lot in perspective on these on blades. Whether we can find anything conclusive or not, the content of the factors brought into the discussion is fascinating and great to learn more!

Salaams Jim and thank you for you well timed analysis so far on this important subject. I was looking through library and found a reference at http://siberiantimes.com/science/cas...-the-terrible/ which again examines the possible meaning on the blade.

I personally prefer the wider meaning/theory behind the writing rather than the absolute meaning not least because of the time it takes to even begin to unravel the basics... On another note I would rather see this thread over on the European as it rather belongs there.... which may sound a bit strange since the project at #1 was supposedly Omani or at least with an Omani Pommel and half a tang..

Thanks again for your important input.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

fernando · 9th August 2015, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

... On another note I would rather see this thread over on the European as it rather belongs there.... which may sound a bit strange since the project at #1 was supposedly Omani or at least with an Omani Pommel and half a tang...

Let's then copy (better than move) this thread to the European section. Remember that future posts will not have a 'dual' effect, but will only fall into the forum they are directed to.

ariel · 21st October 2018, 03:42 AM

Only 3 years passed since the last post... In Darwinian term it is a millisecond:-)
Is the blade hexagonal? Or clearly lenticular ( i.e. biconvex)?

fernando · 21st October 2018, 04:38 PM

To my eyes and judging by its ricasso, it starts hexagonal, and would change to lenticular ... both on the thin side

.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 9th November 2018, 06:01 PM

Lech Marek places a fascinating piece of research on the detail around BENEDICTus style inscriptions on sword blades see http://www.academia.edu/13386318/THE...l._10_pp._9-20

This is hugely detailed but is also very informative describing the ritual of blessing swords etc...

ariel · 10th November 2018, 11:19 AM

To my eyes this hexagonal blade looks like a worn out and modified example of a Spanish cavalry blade 1728 pattern. They produced it in different sizes till the end of 18 century when they switched to the curved blade.

http://perso.wanadoo.es/jjperez222/tropacab_e.htm

10th November 2018, 11:19 AM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	To my eyes this hexagonal blade looks like a worn out and modified example of a Spanish cavalry blade 1728 pattern. They produced it in different sizes till the end of 18 century when they switched to the curved blade. http://perso.wanadoo.es/jjperez222/tropacab_e.htm Last edited by ariel; 10th November 2018 at 03:28 PM. Reason: addt. info

7th August 2015, 12:02 AM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,356	I think that the investigative analysis that has evolved involving the blade which initiated this thread is fascinating, and it is truly impressive to see looks into various alphabets and characters in these mysterious letters. It is important to note that these kinds of letter combinations and groupings have remarkably long history, and in decipherable, seemingly coded groups of letters extend into Anglo-Saxon history on some seaxs found. They are known on Frankish and Viking swords well into medieval times. It is generally held these are acrostic in nature, though other types of arrangements are known as well. In many cases, various sacerdotal and invocative phrases have been somewhat decoded. In Italy, the Caino makers and Picinino seem to have favored these incongruent letter groupings in varied form. They seem to be used in what is known as reductive where each group of letters reduces by one, and in another line they are regrouped in anagram type arrangement. This seems to eliminate acrostic possibility, but it is virtually unimaginable how these can be meant. These kinds of groupings of course became well used in the German blade decoration along with other spurious marks etc. What has presented the greatest obstacle in the plausible revealing of the meaning of many of these letter combinations and groupings has been the factoring in of many occult, esoteric and magical features. In cases, such as with cabbalistic potential, there are often integrated sigils and devices in the linear letter groups in acrostic setting, as well as those used with numeric value. The very secret nature of these of course makes anything beyond speculative suggestions virtually invalid. We can of course observe the character of the lettering, devices or sigils, as well as the context in the blade form and features, just as been done here. I think it has been well established that there is a great deal of the use of older and often European blades in refurbished traditional dress in certain locations in Oman just as a number of other locations. The refurbishing of ethnographic swords by remounting blades in traditional dress seems well known in most cultures. Blades are a valuable commodity, and especially if they are heirloom. In the case of Arabian swords, it does seem that traditional forms are important in cultural and status sense, much as are janbiyya and other edged weapons. As long as these weapons are openly regarded as 'refurbished' using old blade and new mounts, there is no issue. If a sword is 'refurbished' and passed off as homogenous and of noted antiquity, it is a problem. If a blade is combined with incongruent other vintage components, unless those are heirloom items along with blade, or these have combined traditional significance, it seems OK as long as the elements combined are represented as 'composite'. Here we are involved in the study of swords or weapons in most cases from a historic content, and if a weapon is refurbished without proper notice in description, it defeats and compromises the value of the weapon historically. It is understandable that such weapons are valued traditionally and as appropriate status symbols, but they should be so described. Having said all that, what is important in this thread, is the discussion of the blade in #1, the subject of the thread, as well as the apparently incongruent pommel, noted as not originally with this blade. The outstanding approach toward this inscription (in #1) is very insightful and helps a lot in perspective on these on blades. Whether we can find anything conclusive or not, the content of the factors brought into the discussion is fascinating and great to learn more!

21st October 2018, 03:42 AM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Only 3 years passed since the last post... In Darwinian term it is a millisecond:-) Is the blade hexagonal? Or clearly lenticular ( i.e. biconvex)?

21st October 2018, 04:38 PM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	To my eyes and judging by its ricasso, it starts hexagonal, and would change to lenticular ... both on the thin side .

9th November 2018, 06:01 PM	#6
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Lech Marek places a fascinating piece of research on the detail around BENEDICTus style inscriptions on sword blades see http://www.academia.edu/13386318/THE...l._10_pp._9-20 This is hugely detailed but is also very informative describing the ritual of blessing swords etc...