Odd Sword

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by fernando

And now, for those who have fun with talismanic writings, here is the contents of the blank page that preeceds the prologue of "Rules of the Knights of the Order of Christ".

The hand written paragraph says:

Letras de muita virtude para trazerem consigo; which in a free interpretation means Letters of most virtue that you should bring with you.
Note this time are the crosses that are used as 'separators'; particularly crosses of Christ.
Also note the author says letters ... not initials.

I hope Ibrahiim tolerates my hijaking his thread, but i guess he enjoys this particular part.

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Absolutely not a problem in fact I consider this a masterclass. My problem is that there are two sword blades to consider and in the case of one it appears as Latin whereas the blade of #1 is in my view either Hebrew or something related like Old Church Slavonic ...which is linked. I see no Latin in the inscription at #1 and whereas I am delighted to learn the amazing details you have uncovered ...and I have to say I have never seen it noted on these pages before thus it is a first for library !!...and most eloquently presented...

It is apparent that this is a field of study completely missed by most people as is the other aspect of this thread (or one of them) which is the Talismanic nature of the pommel face showing the gridded format common in Arabian artefacts based on the figure five (itself Talismanic) ..

I think that there is a lot of scope to either continue the discussion as you have picked it up...or to open under another thread the intracacies of the amazing subject in its own right...and perhaps for someone to further split the thread into its other part viz;Talismanic signs in General or as you may advise. I spent a few days considering the Talismanic aspects of various items in this sector and the possibilities are huge. The 6 pointed star is monumental in its own right and there are massive texts on such items as Silver Talisman Rings throughout Africa. Trying to focus on sword blade Talismans is virtually impossible so the subjects may have to relocate to the Miscellaneous section perhaps?

On a technicality it could go to the European as European/Latin translations inscribed on swords etc but for sure it is a very important subject for these pages. On the other hand it may fit into the broader aspects of Jims famous thread on Sword Blade Marks at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ht=blade+marks



Note; Several hours may be required for readers to absorb the details on Medieval Inscriptions on European Swords however it is well worth a glance. Please see http://uu.diva-portal.org/smash/get/...FULLTEXT01.pdf

Citation for the original published paper (version of record):
Wagner, T., Worley, J., Holst Blennow, A., Beckholmen, G. (2009)
Medieval Christian invocation inscriptions on sword blades.
Waffen- und Kostümkunde, 51(1): 11-52


Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ian]

Ibrahiim noted, "On a technicality it could go to the European [Forum] as European/Latin translations inscribed on swords etc but for sure it is a very important subject for these pages. On the other hand it may fit into the broader aspects of Jims famous thread on Sword Blade Marks at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...ght=blade+marks

I think both fora would be interested. Perhaps a joint posting (if that is possible). East meets West, or vice versa.

Ibrahiim, you and Fernando should decide where you want to start the new thread. Fernando has the necessary superpowers to move things around if necessary.

Ian.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Ian

Ibrahiim noted, "On a technicality it could go to the European [Forum] as European/Latin translations inscribed on swords etc but for sure it is a very important subject for these pages. On the other hand it may fit into the broader aspects of Jims famous thread on Sword Blade Marks at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...ght=blade+marks

I think both fora would be interested. Perhaps a joint posting (if that is possible). East meets West, or vice versa.

Ibrahiim, you and Fernando should decide where you want to start the new thread. Fernando has the necessary superpowers to move things around if necessary.

Ian.

Thanks Ian, If I may be a little clearer ...

1. Swords with Latin inscriptions, though there are some which occur on Indian Swords imported from Europe and a classic is at the Wallace as an example and I am sure there will be others around the globe; it is still unusual to find blades in the East with Latin inscriptions particularly in Arabia.( Naturally there will be those swords in the far east that arrived with the voyages of discovery etc but as for Arabia I do not count the odd one or two said to have Andrea Ferrera marks or copied Passau Wolf...etc and it would be quite wrong to attribute the swords shown at thread as being of original and honest construction..

The fact is that swords in Arabia generally have Arabic or Persian or Turkish inscriptions if they are inscribed or a particular mark moon or an incantation to God . The equation East meets West is difficult to engineer. (Trade blades, I believe, are best dealt with separately.)

On the subject of Talisman marks it is even more unlikely (I would say impossible ) as the religious or pre religious markers are so differently based. I think this subject also is in itself divided....since it evolved separately in the East and West....even though vague connections may exist the vast majority of such Talisman concepts are unrelated across the East West divide.
************************************************** ****************
2. There are documents on western calligraphy, short bible forms of script, secret inscriptions, runes, Gothic, Latin, Viking, (The Ulberft sword etc) which make for a study in their own right .. and most are very high level examinations. (Before anyone writes in to complain I am aware that we have a number of members who have the required scientific know how to take on these complex papers but I speak generally!)

Whilst I always advise students to get stuck into these references, I have to admit some are quite heavy going but by all means forum ought to have a go...noting that large portions of the material conclude that much of the Viking/Latin /Germanic inscriptions on blades are undecipherable and some marks were actually secret and known only to the owner of the Sword.

I would hate to advise anyone to study something which is in fact pulverisingly difficult even for a rocket scientist to handle. It is, however, really interesting to see these amazing notes and details as reported on by Fernando and I believe the examination as it stands is a great step forward for Forum ..and library is a better informed place.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

So if you think this is difficult have a look at Harry Wagners http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=20332 where The Smithsonian has a really difficult one to decipher.

The reference is playing it difficult thus here is the entire document without pictures...Quote"Help Us Decipher This Inscription

Visitors to Magna Carta: Law, Liberty, Legacy may have noticed that we have one or two objects on display, in addition to the many manuscripts and documents telling Magna Carta's 800-year-old story. One of those objects is a double-edged sword, found in the first section of the exhibition, on loan to the British Library from our friends at the British Museum.

The item in question was found in the River Witham, Lincolnshire, in July 1825, and was presented to the Royal Archaeological Institute by the registrar to the Bishop of Lincoln. It weighs 1.2 kg (2 lb 10 oz) and measures 964 mm (38 in.) in length and 165 mm (6½ in.) across the hilt; if struck with sufficient force, it could easily have sliced a man’s head in two.

BM-Sword
A double-edged sword, 13th century, possibly of German manufacture but discovered in England in the 19th century (British Museum 1858,1116.5): image courtesy of the British Museum

An intriguing feature of this sword is an as yet indecipherable inscription, found along one of its edges and inlaid in gold wire. It has been speculated that this is a religious invocation, since the language is unknown. Can you have a go at trying to decipher it for us? Here's what the inscription seems to read:

+NDXOXCHWDRGHDXORVI+

- In my opinion before even attempting this please have a look at the considerable variation unearthed by some quite astute observations and suggestions from Saxon through Maltese, Latin, Welsh and other alphabets...It really is interesting... and filled with clues...See more at: http://britishlibrary.typepad.co.uk/....Ot2vu7fe.dpuf

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As a matter of interest we have at Forum an already examined particular reference from our own Library which on closer inspection yields the same sword type as at #1 with an interesting set of letters of which the first appears the same as our difficult clipped 5 without its top.

Please see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...tuguese+swords and view the second photograph of#6

I thus conclude that the sword type is the same as #1 but that the combining of the #1 hilt is entirely 21st Century attempting to show the entire weapon as an earlier Omani Dancing Sword. The illusion is transparent. The second sword shows an equally European blade rehilted with an Omani Battle Sword Hilt . The same forger appears to have worked on these blades within the same time scale adding elements of Royal Hilting and an Omani scbbard to further cloud the issue..

This is in some ways rather unfortunate since the classic pommel on #1 is a valuable item in its own right whilst the combining of blades and swords in both cases hundreds of years out of sync are exceptionally unfortunate errors (if in fact forgers consider errors!!) despite the intriguing letters on the imported European blades.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Jim McDougall]

I think that the investigative analysis that has evolved involving the blade which initiated this thread is fascinating, and it is truly impressive to see looks into various alphabets and characters in these mysterious letters.

It is important to note that these kinds of letter combinations and groupings have remarkably long history, and in decipherable, seemingly coded groups of letters extend into Anglo-Saxon history on some seaxs found. They are known on Frankish and Viking swords well into medieval times. It is generally held these are acrostic in nature, though other types of arrangements are known as well. In many cases, various sacerdotal and invocative phrases have been somewhat decoded.

In Italy, the Caino makers and Picinino seem to have favored these incongruent letter groupings in varied form. They seem to be used in what is known as reductive where each group of letters reduces by one, and in another line they are regrouped in anagram type arrangement. This seems to eliminate acrostic possibility, but it is virtually unimaginable how these can be meant. These kinds of groupings of course became well used in the German blade decoration along with other spurious marks etc.

What has presented the greatest obstacle in the plausible revealing of the meaning of many of these letter combinations and groupings has been the factoring in of many occult, esoteric and magical features. In cases, such as with cabbalistic potential, there are often integrated sigils and devices in the linear letter groups in acrostic setting, as well as those used with numeric value. The very secret nature of these of course makes anything beyond speculative suggestions virtually invalid.

We can of course observe the character of the lettering, devices or sigils, as well as the context in the blade form and features, just as been done here.

I think it has been well established that there is a great deal of the use of older and often European blades in refurbished traditional dress in certain locations in Oman just as a number of other locations.

The refurbishing of ethnographic swords by remounting blades in traditional dress seems well known in most cultures. Blades are a valuable commodity, and especially if they are heirloom. In the case of Arabian swords, it does seem that traditional forms are important in cultural and status sense, much as are janbiyya and other edged weapons.
As long as these weapons are openly regarded as 'refurbished' using old blade and new mounts, there is no issue. If a sword is 'refurbished' and passed off as homogenous and of noted antiquity, it is a problem.

If a blade is combined with incongruent other vintage components, unless those are heirloom items along with blade, or these have combined traditional significance, it seems OK as long as the elements combined are represented as 'composite'.

Here we are involved in the study of swords or weapons in most cases from a historic content, and if a weapon is refurbished without proper notice in description, it defeats and compromises the value of the weapon historically. It is understandable that such weapons are valued traditionally and as appropriate status symbols, but they should be so described.

Having said all that, what is important in this thread, is the discussion of the blade in #1, the subject of the thread, as well as the apparently incongruent pommel, noted as not originally with this blade.

The outstanding approach toward this inscription (in #1) is very insightful and helps a lot in perspective on these on blades. Whether we can find anything conclusive or not, the content of the factors brought into the discussion is fascinating and great to learn more!

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I think that the investigative analysis that has evolved involving the blade which initiated this thread is fascinating, and it is truly impressive to see looks into various alphabets and characters in these mysterious letters.


The outstanding approach toward this inscription (in #1) is very insightful and helps a lot in perspective on these on blades. Whether we can find anything conclusive or not, the content of the factors brought into the discussion is fascinating and great to learn more!

Salaams Jim and thank you for you well timed analysis so far on this important subject. I was looking through library and found a reference at http://siberiantimes.com/science/cas...-the-terrible/ which again examines the possible meaning on the blade.

I personally prefer the wider meaning/theory behind the writing rather than the absolute meaning not least because of the time it takes to even begin to unravel the basics... On another note I would rather see this thread over on the European as it rather belongs there.... which may sound a bit strange since the project at #1 was supposedly Omani or at least with an Omani Pommel and half a tang..

Thanks again for your important input.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

... On another note I would rather see this thread over on the European as it rather belongs there.... which may sound a bit strange since the project at #1 was supposedly Omani or at least with an Omani Pommel and half a tang...

Let's then copy (better than move) this thread to the European section. Remember that future posts will not have a 'dual' effect, but will only fall into the forum they are directed to.

[Dmitry]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

+NDXOXCHWDRGHDXORVI+

Damn, now everyone knows my Vikingsword Forum password!

[kronckew]

Originally Posted by Dmitry

Damn, now everyone knows my Vikingsword Forum password!

...and it's your bank account's. I only too a few hundred bitcoins.

Ibrahim, why the shouting?

[Ian]

Originally Posted by kronckew

... Ibrahim, why the shouting?

Just a formatting error I think--now adjusted to normal size.