Odd Sword

[Jim McDougall]

Ibrahiim, you have undertaken a daunting task in trying to decipher this inscription on what appears to be a genuine early European blade, and probably of any one of the nationalities you note. There was so much diffusion of blades that it is difficult to align according to known phrases and invocations except by pure speculation. It seems early, perhaps 17th c, and probably of an arming sword as you mention.

You have conducted a superbly admirable investigation into the most esoteric field in the study of these blades, the mysterious and as Ian has noted, now long lost meaning of these inscriptions, markings and invocations.

While the lettering and arrangements of characters and letters may not correspond precisely to any single alphabet or language, for that matter even translate into recognizable words, there are many variables in possible explanation.
First of all, and particularly in the Solingen case, the application of lettering and inscriptions were carried out by artisans who were in essence, often 'artistically' copying these from other examples. In most cases of course not only were they not speakers of the other languages, they were likely only moderately literate in their own.

In other instances, there was the use of acrostics and gemetria or number values signified by letters. These curious grouping of letters, sometimes symbols or sigils, were probably not particularly easy to transcribe, and in these kinds of 'coded' messages, the omission or misrepresentation of any may render any translation meaningless.

Still, it is truly rewarding and fascinating to see a discussion where the participants are actively looking at and evaluating the many possibilities which may be at hand.

It is good to see the focus on this blade, and its possible origins.

Nicely done, thank you,
Jim

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Ibrahiim, you have undertaken a daunting task in trying to decipher this inscription on what appears to be a genuine early European blade, and probably of any one of the nationalities you note. There was so much diffusion of blades that it is difficult to align according to known phrases and invocations except by pure speculation. It seems early, perhaps 17th c, and probably of an arming sword as you mention.

You have conducted a superbly admirable investigation into the most esoteric field in the study of these blades, the mysterious and as Ian has noted, now long lost meaning of these inscriptions, markings and invocations.

While the lettering and arrangements of characters and letters may not correspond precisely to any single alphabet or language, for that matter even translate into recognizable words, there are many variables in possible explanation.
First of all, and particularly in the Solingen case, the application of lettering and inscriptions were carried out by artisans who were in essence, often 'artistically' copying these from other examples. In most cases of course not only were they not speakers of the other languages, they were likely only moderately literate in their own.

In other instances, there was the use of acrostics and gemetria or number values signified by letters. These curious grouping of letters, sometimes symbols or sigils, were probably not particularly easy to transcribe, and in these kinds of 'coded' messages, the omission or misrepresentation of any may render any translation meaningless.

Still, it is truly rewarding and fascinating to see a discussion where the participants are actively looking at and evaluating the many possibilities which may be at hand.

It is good to see the focus on this blade, and its possible origins.

Nicely done, thank you,
Jim

Salaams Jim, Thank you for your kind words and encouragement. As you know the ''whats in a word conundrum'' accelerates into hyperspace once the Runic/ Talismanic and hidden meanings of Latin, Hebrew or associated script arrives in the 21st Century from way back when... For example as Fernando has explained the x is not an x and sometimes the spelling is contrived.

Your analysis on the swords birthplace is likely and though I knew very little about European blades before now this opportunity to get down and examine them here has been a great experience.

A number of additional things have surfaced in this thread not least the complicated Pommel which I believe in its own right would make a fantastic exhibit in a creditable Museum since it is a genuine old Omani Dancing Sword part probably from the early days of dancing swords in the early first or second decade of the 19thC . Not only does it portray an Islamic 6 pointed star but on another face a very impressive gridded keyboard arrangement playing with the arabic figure five O...The Talismanic 5.

Having this detail on library is so important to potential students and in its own right this Pommel could form the basis for a very good PHD study.

Thanks again for your post.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

For all readers I would like to quote a remarkable piece from wikipedia which underpins the almost impossible task (unless your rubic cube reassembly time is under 25 seconds) of unscrambling these sword inscriptions...

I QUOTE "The Pernik sword
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia~

The Pernik sword is a medieval double-edged iron sword unearthed in the ruins of the medieval fortress of Krakra near Pernik, western Bulgaria, on 1 January 1921. It bears an inscription in silver inlay on the blade.

The sword is preserved in the National Archaeological Museum of Bulgaria in Sofia under inventory number 2044. The sword is 96 centimetres (38 in) in length and up to 4.5 cm (1.8 in) in width.

The inscription, written in the Latin alphabet, was long considered incomprehensible. It reads as follows:

“ +IHININIhVILPIDHINIhVILPN+ ”

Two decipherments have been proposed. One view, expressed in the original archaeological publication about the sword, has been that the text represents a series of Latin abbreviations of sacred formulae that were intended to bring good fortune, as found on other swords from the 12th and 13th centuries.

Following the transcriptions proposed by other authors for similar letter sequences, one Bulgarian author suggested a tentative reading of the Pernik inscription along the lines of "IH(ESUS). IN I(HESUS) N(OMINE). IH(ESUS) VI(RGO). L(AUS) P(ATRIS) I(HESUS) D(OMINI) H(RISTUS). IN IH(ESUS) VI(RGO). L(AUS) P(ATRIS) N(OSTRIS)",

that is to say "Jesus -- in Jesus' name -- Jesus, the Virgin -- praise of the Father, Jesus, the Lord, Christ -- in Jesus, the Virgin - praise of Our Father" (the de-abbreviated words have not been consistently declined).

To put this into perspective, it may be observed that on other swords, the common formula in nomine domini, "in the Lord's name" was abbreviated in ways ranging from the unmistakable NNOMNEDMN to the heavily distorted NINOMINED, OIEDOMINI, INNIOINNEDINI, etc.

Longer inscriptions could be incoherent and contracted to the point of complete opacity, for example INPMPNC I(n) n(omine) p(atris) M(ater) p(atris) n(ostri) C(hristi), "In the name of the Father. Mother of Our Father Christ" or IINBITTPINI I(esus). I(n) n(omine) b(eati) I(esu). T(rinitas). T(rinitas). P(atris) I(esu) n(omine) I(n), "Jesus -- in the name of the blessed Jesus -- Trinity -- Trinity -- Of the Father -- of Jesus -- the name -- in".

A more recent attempt at decipherment, dating from 2005, suggested that the inscription was in an early West Germanic language (Austro-Bavarian or Lombardic of ca. the 6th to 8th century). The proposed parsing is "IH INI NI hVIL PIDH, INI hVIL PN", meaning "I do not await eternity, I am eternity", or literally "I inside not time wait, inside time am" (hvil being cognate to English while and German Weile). If the parsing is plausible or at least the identification of the written language is correct, the text is of great importance to the history of Germanic languages". UNQUOTE.

I might add~"Whilst somewhat bewildering to Ethnographic Sword enthusiasts" !!

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Notes; See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pernik_sword

[fernando]

Wouldn't the Bulgarian author's suggestion be all but a linear approach ? or otherwise being based on strong evidence or scholarship reasoning ... .
The popular (that not born) name of Jesus, a term Latinized from the Greek, doesn't feature the H after the I.
Unless we consider its translation to archaic english, which i am afraid would make it a longer shot in this situation.
Also the allusion to his virginity wasn't currently called upon inscriptions, instead, that of Mary, as we all know to be mentioned in countless situations.
But then again, he must have his reasons

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by fernando

Wouldn't the Bulgarian author's suggestion be all but a linear approach ? or otherwise being based on strong evidence or scholarship reasoning ... .
The popular (that not born) name of Jesus, a term Latinized from the Greek, doesn't feature the H after the I.
Unless we consider its translation to archaic english, which i am afraid would make it a longer shot in this situation.
Also the allusion to his virginity wasn't currently called upon inscriptions, instead, that of Mary, as we all know to be mentioned in countless situations.
But then again, he must have his reasons

Yes that may be your take on it..and I would not argue with that...but... as the passage indicates that "the de abbreviated words have not been consistently declined" moreover I think it is what it doesn't say which is relevant and quite beyond me, that is, ...To even get close to this often secretive meaning ones armoury should contain a host of certificates not least a degree in Latin and Greek as well as Hebrew,OCS, Old Bulgarian, Cyrillic and on top of that a highly specialized understanding of Biblical Studies ... The specialty benefiting from Bulgarian Runic inscriptions as well as Taliaman symbols and secret texts etc.

It is simply not enough to be grounded in a few Latin phrases and sayings as it is literally clouded in short initials and secrecy... and at the end of the day it may be uncrackable!!

It is as complex a subject as Talismanic signs thus this is indeed the Rubic Cube of Ethnographic Weapons study...and I have to say it is a bridge somewhat beyond my ability.

I also do not think it wholly central to the thread as I see it...since the essence of what we are looking at is swords of a certain origin not of the country of manufacture but assuming the cloak of originality knitted by a master of disguises...and although I am very intrigued by the Pommel and Talismans described earlier, I am not so concerned now with the blade or what is upon it. Naturally others may take this on if they have a few hours to spare !! though it is a real monster ! It is hardly surprising that there are few documents available on the subject.

Thank you very much for showing some of the complexities of this puzzling subject.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[fernando]

I think i should come back to lettering issue, even if i am in part correcting my previous consideration.
My idea is that, the contents of what i have learnt may be useful for collectors general knowledge.
Having consulted some of my old books in Portuguese armoury (Viterbo 1907-1908), i foccused on the the way the name of Jesus Christ and document dating were practised in the XVI century, when Kings issued letters of previlege to armoury smiths.
I can not type the way these were done, as current keyboards do not have such characters, as also the fonts used by Viterbo printers in 1907 may also be a bit distorced.
This way i show parts in the book where Jesus Christ "initials" are mentioned, as well as a genuine print that comes in a "reformulation of the Rules of the Order of Christ" (ex-Templars), published in 1503.
In both cases the letter H has a place but, above all, it is interesting to know how these symbols may appear in weapons ... and not only.
Also the type of dating is most interesting as, being Roman numeration, is rather different than that used nowadays. I phoned the experts in Torre do Tombo (National Archives) and they told me that, in that early period, Roman numeration had a difftent 'convention' ... which i, for one, was not aware of.
I also upload here a couple examples contained in such letters of previlege so that, if these figures show up in old (Portuguese) swords, won't be a complete surprise.

.

[Ian]

Fernando, that is really very interesting. Thanks for your work on this.

Ian