Odd Sword

[Robert]

Originally Posted by A. alnakkas
But I guess lets just believe that Omanis had swords to dance with and swords to fight with. They probably had toy horses too.

Gentlemen, any further sarcasm or baiting by anyone will be dealt with quickly and harshly. You have been warned.

Robert

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

The Inscription on # 1.

I think Hebrew is the form. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rashi_...abetVector.svg Actually the difficulty appears with the two A forms either flank of the line of letters SIMILAR TO A 51UU A already outlined at #46.

I mention OCS Old Church Slavonic see https://www.flickr.com/photos/habers...ytcheck=1which is well worth a look since the second line from the bottom and at number two from the right is the odd A I think we are looking for.

The links to Hebrew in this ancient form may well form the bridge to this mixed line of script.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

It may mean absolutely nothing at all!!

From ananael@blogspot.com I QUOTE" Two swords bearing esoteric inscriptions are now on display at the Guildhall Museum in Boston, UK. They date from the 13th or 14th century and were discovered together at the bottom of the Witham River. So far the inscriptions have defied translation, though they may very well consist of magical formulas rather than words from any particular language. The use of such formulas was a common practice in the Middle Ages and early Renaissance. The famous phrase SATOR AREPO TENET OPERA ROTAS, for example, does contain words that can be translated from Latin, but its function is more likely linked to that of the 5x5 magic square of Mars which its structure resembles.

Officials at the Guildhall say the best guess is that the weapons were dressed in such a fashion to endow them with special magical properties such as enabling their owners to vanquish any foe and endow their swords with the life force energy of their opponents.It is probable that the "magical" inscriptions were not visible when the swords were made and that only corrosion and decay of the outer surfaces over the centuries has now allowed their secrets to be revealed.

Mystery also surrounds their discovery close together at the bottom of the river near Bardney. One theory is that they may have been votive offerings to please the gods and so deliberately placed in the waters. At that time the Witham was the "motorway" of the day between Boston and Lincoln so the swords' owners may have been from this area and would certainly have been familiar with it. The swords are iron double-edged with a groove running down the greater part of the blade.

One has straight hand guard of circular section and a wheel pommel. The inscription on this one reads: '+SNEXORENEXORENEXOR ENE XOREIS+'.


The + probably represents the sign of the cross, as is commonly found on devices constructed by Christian magicians. The first part of the phrase, SNEXORENEXORENEXOR could be a gloss for SNEXORE NEXORE NEXOR, a reduction formula in which each subsequent word is shortened by a letter. ABRACADABRA can be written this way as a triangle in which each word loses one letter from the line above it. The reduction of the root word, in this case SNEXORE, served to concentrate its power and essence. The meaning of the keyword itself, though, could be just about anything, from poorly copied Greek or Hebrew from one of the old grimoires to a notariquon (or acronym) encoding some magical phrase or text".UNQUOTE.

WHILST READERS MAY TEND TO DISAGREE WITH SOME OF THE ABOVE HYPOTHESIS ..P[ERSONALLY i AM UNSURE OF THE IDEA THAT SWORDS WERE MADE WITH A HIDDEN TEXT ON THE BLADE WHICH APPEARED AFTER THE SWORD HAD CORRODED...NO I CANT QUITE SEE THAT...HOWEVER THE OTHER GENERAL IDEAS ARE INTERESTING ...

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[ariel]

There is not a trace, not a hint, not a whiff of Hebrew here. If you need confirmation, Artzi Yarom is the source.

There is not a trace, hint or whiff of Old Slavonic Glagolitic here, either.


Having seen the most recent pics, I thought that Soares was the obvious answer. Fernando beat me to it :-))))

Pure Western Europe.

[Ian]

Ibrahiim: Your last post may be on target. While, at one time, the second inscription may have meant something to someone, that meaning seems to have been lost over time and today we are left with an unintelligible mystery. Thanks for your pursuit of many and varied possibilities, even in scripts that are archaic today!

Ariel: Western Europe may well be the source, and I think there is a general consensus that this is a European blade.

Ian

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Ian

Ibrahiim: Your last post may be on target. While, at one time, the second inscription may have meant something to someone, that meaning seems to have been lost over time and today we are left with an unintelligible mystery. Thanks for your pursuit of many and varied possibilities, even in scripts that are archaic today!

Ariel: Western Europe may well be the source, and I think there is a general consensus that this is a European blade.

Ian

Salaams Ian, For sure the blade is European ...I would say Portuguese, Italian or German style like Papenheimer or something similar... but the script...whilst it may mean nothing is taunting since it is so close to some of the varieties like OCS and Hebrew... I just cant match a European alphabet to it... I still think Hebrew may be the answer however I am sure it will turn up some day...

Actually, though it would be nice to crack the code it doesn't really matter since the essence of the idea and the peculiar circumstances of this blade and others like it into and out of the Red Sea Arena are more clearly understood with such examples albeit with much skulduggery attached. Fortunately we have uncovered this practice of hilt switching having shone the bright light (of field research) into that dark corner..

It's no great surprise since even great museums around the world are infiltrated with very clever stuff...As they say... "If only they could talk" ?

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by ariel

There is not a trace, not a hint, not a whiff of Hebrew here. If you need confirmation, Artzi Yarom is the source.

There is not a trace, hint or whiff of Old Slavonic Glagolitic here, either.


Having seen the most recent pics, I thought that Soares was the obvious answer. Fernando beat me to it :-))))

Pure Western Europe.

Salaams ariel, Are you referring to the sword at $1? since the SOARES inscription is not the project I am trying to translate?? Observe the Norwegian for the word Svare...which means answer respond or reply... seems like a reasonable solution except its got an S on the end but these inscriptions are rarely accurate...

However, please do look at the letters on #1 and tell me what language in western Europe uses the form that is similar to A 51UU A

Where the two A looking characters are quite different to European A style having a vee or tee shaped crossbar and which is almost identical to OCS.

Where the letter Zayin (similar to a 5 with no top) is a Hebrew Cursive letter...

Where the two letter U forms are also Hebrew. They appear as almost IJ close together...

Finally if you have a better idea or your associate can help by all means lets hear it from that quarter ...

Which European language/western language might this be from? I would be delighted to hear it.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[fernando]

Think of the X's not as letters but as 'separators', as often happens.
Then you a continued sequence of the terms related, mispell allowed, with the latin verb ORARE (orar em portuguese, meaning to pray).

[Jim McDougall]

Ibrahiim, you have undertaken a daunting task in trying to decipher this inscription on what appears to be a genuine early European blade, and probably of any one of the nationalities you note. There was so much diffusion of blades that it is difficult to align according to known phrases and invocations except by pure speculation. It seems early, perhaps 17th c, and probably of an arming sword as you mention.

You have conducted a superbly admirable investigation into the most esoteric field in the study of these blades, the mysterious and as Ian has noted, now long lost meaning of these inscriptions, markings and invocations.

While the lettering and arrangements of characters and letters may not correspond precisely to any single alphabet or language, for that matter even translate into recognizable words, there are many variables in possible explanation.
First of all, and particularly in the Solingen case, the application of lettering and inscriptions were carried out by artisans who were in essence, often 'artistically' copying these from other examples. In most cases of course not only were they not speakers of the other languages, they were likely only moderately literate in their own.

In other instances, there was the use of acrostics and gemetria or number values signified by letters. These curious grouping of letters, sometimes symbols or sigils, were probably not particularly easy to transcribe, and in these kinds of 'coded' messages, the omission or misrepresentation of any may render any translation meaningless.

Still, it is truly rewarding and fascinating to see a discussion where the participants are actively looking at and evaluating the many possibilities which may be at hand.

It is good to see the focus on this blade, and its possible origins.

Nicely done, thank you,
Jim

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Ibrahiim, you have undertaken a daunting task in trying to decipher this inscription on what appears to be a genuine early European blade, and probably of any one of the nationalities you note. There was so much diffusion of blades that it is difficult to align according to known phrases and invocations except by pure speculation. It seems early, perhaps 17th c, and probably of an arming sword as you mention.

You have conducted a superbly admirable investigation into the most esoteric field in the study of these blades, the mysterious and as Ian has noted, now long lost meaning of these inscriptions, markings and invocations.

While the lettering and arrangements of characters and letters may not correspond precisely to any single alphabet or language, for that matter even translate into recognizable words, there are many variables in possible explanation.
First of all, and particularly in the Solingen case, the application of lettering and inscriptions were carried out by artisans who were in essence, often 'artistically' copying these from other examples. In most cases of course not only were they not speakers of the other languages, they were likely only moderately literate in their own.

In other instances, there was the use of acrostics and gemetria or number values signified by letters. These curious grouping of letters, sometimes symbols or sigils, were probably not particularly easy to transcribe, and in these kinds of 'coded' messages, the omission or misrepresentation of any may render any translation meaningless.

Still, it is truly rewarding and fascinating to see a discussion where the participants are actively looking at and evaluating the many possibilities which may be at hand.

It is good to see the focus on this blade, and its possible origins.

Nicely done, thank you,
Jim

Salaams Jim, Thank you for your kind words and encouragement. As you know the ''whats in a word conundrum'' accelerates into hyperspace once the Runic/ Talismanic and hidden meanings of Latin, Hebrew or associated script arrives in the 21st Century from way back when... For example as Fernando has explained the x is not an x and sometimes the spelling is contrived.

Your analysis on the swords birthplace is likely and though I knew very little about European blades before now this opportunity to get down and examine them here has been a great experience.

A number of additional things have surfaced in this thread not least the complicated Pommel which I believe in its own right would make a fantastic exhibit in a creditable Museum since it is a genuine old Omani Dancing Sword part probably from the early days of dancing swords in the early first or second decade of the 19thC . Not only does it portray an Islamic 6 pointed star but on another face a very impressive gridded keyboard arrangement playing with the arabic figure five O...The Talismanic 5.

Having this detail on library is so important to potential students and in its own right this Pommel could form the basis for a very good PHD study.

Thanks again for your post.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.