Pirate swords and weapons

Jim McDougall · 3rd August 2015, 04:29 PM

Geez Rick!
I thought I was presenting some helpful data for readers who might be forming their own opinions. My note on the possibility of 'clandestine intervention' (= salting) was expressed simply as a personal suggestion which offered Mr. Clifford's case an optimistic option.
I thought that seemed clear, I don't necessarily 'believe' anything, as I am inclined to move either direction as more compelling or plausible data becomes available.

In my suggestion I was actually implying that this bar might have been the product of some earlier 'enterprise' in the ongoing Captain Kidd business from perhaps the 19th century ones such as "Oak Island"; the Palmer Brothers and the more recent ventures off the coast of Viet Nam....or of that ilk. I guess I feel compelled to see someone innocent until proven guilty .

I regret that you misunderstood, and I hope you did not get the impression I thought you were making 'wild assertions'. I hoped my notes here would be received as talking points for further discussion, rather than asserting my assumed beliefs.

In any case, you are an 'old salt' yourself

and you know a heck of a lot more on these seagoing things than I, so I hope you see my drift. Just trying to fit pieces of a really old puzzle with a lot of them missing .

Rick · 3rd August 2015, 04:32 PM

Then, I apologize to you Jim .

When you first joined in on this discussion you had a very high opinion of the person in question despite reading what I had to say .

I would have said a lot more and quite clearly were it not for concerns about legal ramifications .

Got my dander right up, you did .

Jim McDougall · 3rd August 2015, 06:02 PM

Actually Rick, I still do have a very high opinion of him, and what I wrote were the results of my own impartial research, in which I spent quite a few hours and various approaches. I did not realize that what I wrote appeared gauged to what comments you made, although in discussion they were of course seemingly pertinent.

As I mentioned, my suggestions toward optimistic alternate possibilities were placed respectfully as just that , as prudent in circumstances such as these where sometimes disparity in opinions exists. I do indeed believe what I will, but realize others may as well. What I failed to remember is the often unfortunate result of expressing opinions here, and honestly thought what I had tendered was data from research and talking points.

Sorry about the dander

a lot of it going around lately, and restraint is always good for many reasons, legality notwithstanding .

Thanks for the apology
Jim

Rick · 3rd August 2015, 06:38 PM

Agree, and consider the subject dropped on my part .

Rick · 20th September 2015, 04:16 PM

Just seen on the History Channel :
Pirate Treasure of the Knights Templar
Give it a look and draw your own conclusions .

My conclusion:
Great TV, far fetched; but a payday for certain folks .

Ian · 20th September 2015, 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Just seen on the History Channel :
Pirate Treasure of the Knights Templar
Give it a look and draw your own conclusions .

My conclusion:
Great TV, far fetched; but a payday for certain folks .

Yes, I saw that too Rick. A real stretch IMHO. There's always a good excuse when the buried site comes up empty--"someone moved it." The guy from Minneapolis must make a good living off these treasure tales. He had an episode on Captain Kidd's treasure too. If there was anything to his treasure hunts we would have heard about it through regular news channels by now.

I wonder who payrolls this stuff--networks, advertisers.

Ian

Jim McDougall · 21st September 2015, 05:39 PM

I have to hand it to this guy, he is a master of 'lore', however at the expense of any true comprehension of real history. I admire the sense of 'magic' and excitement that he theatrically creates, and I admit that I very much miss sometimes. It was fun being a kid and the thrill of believing all of this stuff.

Even so, as when I started this thread, the study of the 'actual' pirates has proven fascinating, and these often bizarre machinations of the lore surrounding them in popular media today is more fun and laughable entertainment than anything else . The masses are easily reached today via many venues and thus these 'romps' or I should say 'tramplings' through history are big time money makers!! far more than any 'treasure' the pirates might have realized !

Naturally, this guy, and the producers certainly must be aware of the truth behind much of this lore, and probably deftly craft these 'adventures' around that material for the thrill of the less informed, and hysterical entertainment of those of us who actually study these topics.

The thoughts of Masonic connection to the pirates, and the skull and crossbones to piratic associations with the Templars are long standing prompts that have been heavily played in historical studies of pirates.
These are of course tenuous at best, but as always, tempting as we slip into the deeply held lore and magical mystery of piracy itself.

It is the writers who created these wonderful myths, from Washington Irving in 1824, who relied on the often sensationalized accounts of earlier writers. These then continued embellishment and expansion into the works of Poe and of course Stevenson.

The truth in the history of these often mysterious figures we collectively know as pirates is fascinating........but these TV and popular media versions are FUN

and gotta admit, still love "Pirates of the Caribbean" !! Pretty much the same thing, but still addicting.

3rd August 2015, 06:38 PM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,365	Agree, and consider the subject dropped on my part . Last edited by Rick; 3rd August 2015 at 07:00 PM.

20th September 2015, 04:16 PM	#5
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,365	The Plot Thickens Just seen on the History Channel : Pirate Treasure of the Knights Templar Give it a look and draw your own conclusions . My conclusion: Great TV, far fetched; but a payday for certain folks .

3rd August 2015, 04:29 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,587	Geez Rick! I thought I was presenting some helpful data for readers who might be forming their own opinions. My note on the possibility of 'clandestine intervention' (= salting) was expressed simply as a personal suggestion which offered Mr. Clifford's case an optimistic option. I thought that seemed clear, I don't necessarily 'believe' anything, as I am inclined to move either direction as more compelling or plausible data becomes available. In my suggestion I was actually implying that this bar might have been the product of some earlier 'enterprise' in the ongoing Captain Kidd business from perhaps the 19th century ones such as "Oak Island"; the Palmer Brothers and the more recent ventures off the coast of Viet Nam....or of that ilk. I guess I feel compelled to see someone innocent until proven guilty . I regret that you misunderstood, and I hope you did not get the impression I thought you were making 'wild assertions'. I hoped my notes here would be received as talking points for further discussion, rather than asserting my assumed beliefs. In any case, you are an 'old salt' yourself and you know a heck of a lot more on these seagoing things than I, so I hope you see my drift. Just trying to fit pieces of a really old puzzle with a lot of them missing .

3rd August 2015, 04:32 PM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,365	Then, I apologize to you Jim . When you first joined in on this discussion you had a very high opinion of the person in question despite reading what I had to say . I would have said a lot more and quite clearly were it not for concerns about legal ramifications . Got my dander right up, you did .

3rd August 2015, 06:02 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,587	Actually Rick, I still do have a very high opinion of him, and what I wrote were the results of my own impartial research, in which I spent quite a few hours and various approaches. I did not realize that what I wrote appeared gauged to what comments you made, although in discussion they were of course seemingly pertinent. As I mentioned, my suggestions toward optimistic alternate possibilities were placed respectfully as just that , as prudent in circumstances such as these where sometimes disparity in opinions exists. I do indeed believe what I will, but realize others may as well. What I failed to remember is the often unfortunate result of expressing opinions here, and honestly thought what I had tendered was data from research and talking points. Sorry about the dander a lot of it going around lately, and restraint is always good for many reasons, legality notwithstanding . Thanks for the apology Jim

21st September 2015, 05:39 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,587	I have to hand it to this guy, he is a master of 'lore', however at the expense of any true comprehension of real history. I admire the sense of 'magic' and excitement that he theatrically creates, and I admit that I very much miss sometimes. It was fun being a kid and the thrill of believing all of this stuff. Even so, as when I started this thread, the study of the 'actual' pirates has proven fascinating, and these often bizarre machinations of the lore surrounding them in popular media today is more fun and laughable entertainment than anything else . The masses are easily reached today via many venues and thus these 'romps' or I should say 'tramplings' through history are big time money makers!! far more than any 'treasure' the pirates might have realized ! Naturally, this guy, and the producers certainly must be aware of the truth behind much of this lore, and probably deftly craft these 'adventures' around that material for the thrill of the less informed, and hysterical entertainment of those of us who actually study these topics. The thoughts of Masonic connection to the pirates, and the skull and crossbones to piratic associations with the Templars are long standing prompts that have been heavily played in historical studies of pirates. These are of course tenuous at best, but as always, tempting as we slip into the deeply held lore and magical mystery of piracy itself. It is the writers who created these wonderful myths, from Washington Irving in 1824, who relied on the often sensationalized accounts of earlier writers. These then continued embellishment and expansion into the works of Poe and of course Stevenson. The truth in the history of these often mysterious figures we collectively know as pirates is fascinating........but these TV and popular media versions are FUN and gotta admit, still love "Pirates of the Caribbean" !! Pretty much the same thing, but still addicting.