Pirate swords and weapons

[Jim McDougall]

As I mentioned, I always tend to search further, and in this case, as much as reluctant to say so, the true nature of this ingot is indeed suspect.

Kidd was in Isle St.Marie in 1699, at this point vs. his first 'pirate' prey, Capt Culliford. Unfortunately Kidds three ships were in terrible shape, the "Adventure Galley"; The Quedah Merchant (a captured Indian merchant vessel) and the "Rouparelle" (also captured, renamed 'November').
Many of Kidds men basically began to mutiny and go to the 'pirate' side, from there things get hazy.

Some say Culliford sank 'November' and left Kidd after stripping the other two ships of materials. What seems odd is that the 'treasure' held on the Quedah Merchant was not taken.
Kidd, took everything remaining off the now nearly sinking 'Adventure Galley' and put aboard the Quedah Merchant to head for New York.

It remains unclear which of the two ships, 'Rouparelle' or 'Adventure Galley' was burned or sunk, but whatever the case, they never left Isle St. Marie.

The 'treasure' on the Quedah Merchant consisted of silver and gold, presumably of both bullion and coin, and some rich textiles, but these were of Indian extraction, so presumably any bullion would most likely have been East India Company.

Which begs the question, 'why would an abnormally heavy silver ingot from Potosi (Bolivia) be found in what is believed to be the remains of the Kidd ship (either of the two abandoned there) . While Kidd may have had plunder from the Indian vessel(s), he had not accessed Spanish vessels (as far as I can find) in these waters .

In looking through information on Spanish silver ingot markings and detail from 17th century and Potosi (Bolivia) in particular, the markings on the Clifford ingot seem somewhat in the same fashion with initials, but lack the other key stamps and marks that characterize Potosi bars. Especially notable is the absence of the assayers 'bite', a scoop taken out by the assayer for testing (and exclusively a practice used at Potosi), with these findings always stamped in the bar along with date and bar number.

In looking into detail on the lead ballast ingots used in ships in these times, it does seem that they were made in these heavy weights ( large pigs) and some smaller, with the shape rather 'boat like' and often with convex facings. They often used stamped markings, initials and dates, but in far less frequency and without any of the often profuse detail of the silver bars of Spain or others presumably .

Also notable is the fact that this is a single bar, and ballast rubble seems to be in mounds in mass, especially in shallow water where a ship simply sank or foundered as careened....or again, was burned. In deep water wrecks the ballast or other contents may be strewn over an area as the ship comes apart and descends.

Interesting research, but would have preferred to find more positive evidence FOR Mr. Clifford's case. Still, I very much look forward to rebuttal's from his group, as mine is simply from various published material, and certainly limited in comparison to his experience and professional expertise.

I still wonder if Vandoo had something there with the silver coated lead ingot idea. Perhaps there was clandestine 'salting ' of these sites, as Mr Clifford has been searching them since 2000. In publications in 2002 and others, nothing had been found but a number of sundry items like bottles etc. which could be debris off any number of the many vessels in this burgeoning pirate haven of those times . As Rick mentioned, the Captain Kidd enterprise like many treasure hunt schemes knows few bounds, and it seems quite possible this might have been a snare placed in Mr. Cliffords corner, if the claims against this artifact/item are true.

[Rick]

1. Fifteen years is a long time for 'Private Funding' to wait for a return .

2. You need evidence besides magnetometer hits to convince our federal gov't. to allow you to hover over an area of ocean with 'mailboxes' to excavate sea bottom within one of our national parks . Hmmm, what to do about physical proof ??

3.The Whydah was well buried deep under a LOT of sand, but it WAS there, no argument . One good find sets you up pretty well in the 'Privately Funded' treasure hunting biz .
Believe what you want to believe Jim .

I don't go around making wild assertions; I will assert that the method used to gain Federal permitting for the Whydah Galley project was very 'Salty' .

[Jim McDougall]

Geez Rick!
I thought I was presenting some helpful data for readers who might be forming their own opinions. My note on the possibility of 'clandestine intervention' (= salting) was expressed simply as a personal suggestion which offered Mr. Clifford's case an optimistic option.
I thought that seemed clear, I don't necessarily 'believe' anything, as I am inclined to move either direction as more compelling or plausible data becomes available.

In my suggestion I was actually implying that this bar might have been the product of some earlier 'enterprise' in the ongoing Captain Kidd business from perhaps the 19th century ones such as "Oak Island"; the Palmer Brothers and the more recent ventures off the coast of Viet Nam....or of that ilk. I guess I feel compelled to see someone innocent until proven guilty .

I regret that you misunderstood, and I hope you did not get the impression I thought you were making 'wild assertions'. I hoped my notes here would be received as talking points for further discussion, rather than asserting my assumed beliefs.

In any case, you are an 'old salt' yourself and you know a heck of a lot more on these seagoing things than I, so I hope you see my drift. Just trying to fit pieces of a really old puzzle with a lot of them missing .

[Rick]

Then, I apologize to you Jim .
When you first joined in on this discussion you had a very high opinion of the person in question despite reading what I had to say .

I would have said a lot more and quite clearly were it not for concerns about legal ramifications .

Got my dander right up, you did .

[Jim McDougall]

Actually Rick, I still do have a very high opinion of him, and what I wrote were the results of my own impartial research, in which I spent quite a few hours and various approaches. I did not realize that what I wrote appeared gauged to what comments you made, although in discussion they were of course seemingly pertinent.

As I mentioned, my suggestions toward optimistic alternate possibilities were placed respectfully as just that , as prudent in circumstances such as these where sometimes disparity in opinions exists. I do indeed believe what I will, but realize others may as well. What I failed to remember is the often unfortunate result of expressing opinions here, and honestly thought what I had tendered was data from research and talking points.

Sorry about the dander a lot of it going around lately, and restraint is always good for many reasons, legality notwithstanding .

Thanks for the apology
Jim

[Rick]

Agree, and consider the subject dropped on my part .

[Rick]

Just seen on the History Channel :
Pirate Treasure of the Knights Templar
Give it a look and draw your own conclusions .
My conclusion:
Great TV, far fetched; but a payday for certain folks .