Sudanese Short Sword or Long Knife?

Iain · 30th July 2015, 02:14 PM

Dongola is the best attribution I've ever seen if a tad imprecise still.

This one looks decidedly 20th century based on the blade.

Miguel · 31st July 2015, 08:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iain

Dongola is the best attribution I've ever seen if a tad imprecise still.

This one looks decidedly 20th century based on the blade.

Hi Ian,

I`m not sure of the age of this weapon but must admit to thinking it was more 19thC than 20thC as you so firmly comment. I would be grateful if you could give me a few pointers as to how you arrived at the 20thC as I am still learning.
Regards
Miguel

Iain · 31st July 2015, 10:10 PM

Hi Miguel,

My comment is based on a few aspects. Mainly to do with the shape and form of the blade.

The piece you have exhibited has rough "fullers" or grooves which are made by grinding, not forging, and the marks in the blade are a degenerative style of half moon marks, these are clear indications of non-European manufacture.

These factors in conjunction with the style of the hilt are why I would attribute this to the 20th century.

Jim McDougall · 1st August 2015, 08:55 PM

Hi Miguel,
Thank you for the kind response, and I would note that most of us indeed find the complexities of the Sudan, North Africa, and the tribal and colonial aspects very very confusing. The good thing is that serious and tenacious scholars such as Iain in recent years here, have incredibly advanced our knowledge and understanding of these.
It is often hard to concisely explain some of the more subtle nuances of these weapons, but it seems the more modern examples reflect various identifying and characteristic features of much earlier ones. Often these are almost caricatures of the originals, and often much cruder.

It must be remembered that these tribal peoples are of course very traditional, and often these more modern interpretations of much older weapons are intended for various genuine purposes among them.
Many weapons are now ceremonial or traditional accoutrements, and of course often sold to anxious tourists on opportunity. Therefore, although not expressly 'tourist' they often become 'souveniers'.
In my opinion, your example seems to be a sound and intriguing example of just such a weapon with this kind of traditional integrity. Very nice .

Miguel · 2nd August 2015, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Hi Miguel,
Thank you for the kind response, and I would note that most of us indeed find the complexities of the Sudan, North Africa, and the tribal and colonial aspects very very confusing. The good thing is that serious and tenacious scholars such as Iain in recent years here, have incredibly advanced our knowledge and understanding of these.
It is often hard to concisely explain some of the more subtle nuances of these weapons, but it seems the more modern examples reflect various identifying and characteristic features of much earlier ones. Often these are almost caricatures of the originals, and often much cruder.

It must be remembered that these tribal peoples are of course very traditional, and often these more modern interpretations of much older weapons are intended for various genuine purposes among them.
Many weapons are now ceremonial or traditional accoutrements, and of course often sold to anxious tourists on opportunity. Therefore, although not expressly 'tourist' they often become 'souveniers'.
In my opinion, your example seems to be a sound and intriguing example of just such a weapon with this kind of traditional integrity. Very nice .

Hi Jim,

Thanks for your comments which coupled with Ian`s observations make a lot of sense to me. As I have said before `Awesome` it is a privilege to be able to take part in this forum.
Regards
Miguel

Miguel · 2nd August 2015, 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iain

Hi Miguel,

My comment is based on a few aspects. Mainly to do with the shape and form of the blade.

The piece you have exhibited has rough "fullers" or grooves which are made by grinding, not forging, and the marks in the blade are a degenerative style of half moon marks, these are clear indications of non-European manufacture.

These factors in conjunction with the style of the hilt are why I would attribute this to the 20th century.

Hi Ian,
Many thanks for your comments I find trying to date a Sudanese item almost impossible and am extremely grateful for your help.
Regards
Miguel

30th July 2015, 02:14 PM	#1
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,708	Dongola is the best attribution I've ever seen if a tad imprecise still. This one looks decidedly 20th century based on the blade.

31st July 2015, 10:10 PM	#3
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,708	Hi Miguel, My comment is based on a few aspects. Mainly to do with the shape and form of the blade. The piece you have exhibited has rough "fullers" or grooves which are made by grinding, not forging, and the marks in the blade are a degenerative style of half moon marks, these are clear indications of non-European manufacture. These factors in conjunction with the style of the hilt are why I would attribute this to the 20th century.

1st August 2015, 08:55 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,196	Hi Miguel, Thank you for the kind response, and I would note that most of us indeed find the complexities of the Sudan, North Africa, and the tribal and colonial aspects very very confusing. The good thing is that serious and tenacious scholars such as Iain in recent years here, have incredibly advanced our knowledge and understanding of these. It is often hard to concisely explain some of the more subtle nuances of these weapons, but it seems the more modern examples reflect various identifying and characteristic features of much earlier ones. Often these are almost caricatures of the originals, and often much cruder. It must be remembered that these tribal peoples are of course very traditional, and often these more modern interpretations of much older weapons are intended for various genuine purposes among them. Many weapons are now ceremonial or traditional accoutrements, and of course often sold to anxious tourists on opportunity. Therefore, although not expressly 'tourist' they often become 'souveniers'. In my opinion, your example seems to be a sound and intriguing example of just such a weapon with this kind of traditional integrity. Very nice .