Anglo-Indian army swords

[A.alnakkas]

this one was in my collection. Blade and scabbard are wootz but dont think its Indian?

[sirupate]

Some fabulous swords and information arising through this fabulous thread

[A.alnakkas]

another one.

[mrcjgscott]

Jonathan Hopkins over on SFI once posted the following image and statement, which shows one of these curved 1796 style blades in use in 1911:

"The sword pictured in the 1911 Cavalry Training Indian Supplement looks remarkably like the P1796, but the blade appears to be narrower and without a hatchet point."

[mrcjgscott]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

this one was in my collection. Blade and scabbard are wootz but dont think its Indian?

Hello A.alnakkas,

Many thanks for posting these examples. The first one you show looks very similar to some Imperial Russian swords I have seen. Does it carry and markings to the blade?

I have two similar to the second sword you show, but both with different crests to the grip. I presume they are for different Indian states. I shall take some photographs of my examples for comparison.

[mrcjgscott]

The following images are reproduced here by the kind permission of Robert Wilkinson Latham. Naturally all copyright belongs to Robert, and they are not to be reproduced without his permission.

The first images shows India Office "tulwar" blades and 1907 pattern bayonets being finished at Wilkinson's factory in Acton in 1915.

The second shows an Apprentice handing three bar hilts to a fitter, working on the bending and shaping machine in 1916.

The third shows a pattern photograph of the hilt of a P08 Indian cavalry troopers sword.

The fourth images shows pattern drawings for a three bar cavalry sword circa 1914.
Robert notes "I am sure that the so called Bengal, Paget etc patterns referred to blade type and hilts were different depending on the regiment, there being a variety of known but mainly unidentified hilt types. The most common is of course the 3 bar version. (When it comes to the maharaja's forces, this three bar hilt was often fitted with a medallion on the hilt for whatever state and there are of course regular cavalry variations.!!!!

Eventually the 3 bar hilt dominated circa 1914 when the India Store Depot produced a full size drawings (Ref 9470) and specification for the 3 bar hilted sword (Pattern 6480) which was designated Sword Tulwar Cavalry."

The final image shows a hilt detail of an Indian Cavalry sword. This type of walnut grip is peculiar to swords made for Indian service and others of the type have been associated with private purchase officers swords of the period.

Kind regards,

Chris

[A.alnakkas]

Originally Posted by mrcjgscott

Hello A.alnakkas,

Many thanks for posting these examples. The first one you show looks very similar to some Imperial Russian swords I have seen. Does it carry and markings to the blade?

I have two similar to the second sword you show, but both with different crests to the grip. I presume they are for different Indian states. I shall take some photographs of my examples for comparison.

hmmm, although the design is Russian I think its Persian. Qajar used Russian designed sabres as far as I know. It also had the Qajar crown on the hilt. Will annoy my friend and ask him to snap photos of it :-)

[mrcjgscott]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

hmmm, although the design is Russian I think its Persian. Qajar used Russian designed sabres as far as I know. It also had the Qajar crown on the hilt. Will annoy my friend and ask him to snap photos of it :-)

Ahhh I see, that is certainly a new one on me, every day is a school day!

Further images would certainly be most enlightening, thank you!

[mrcjgscott]

Here are some images of the 1796 style officers sword I mentioned to Jim on the tulwar thread. This is one of my personal favourites, and it survived the cull of my collection, and several tempting offers from fellow enthusiasts!

Apologies for the photo quality, these are around 10 years old!

[Shakethetrees]

Great looking saber!

It appears to have a bone grip, right?

[sirupate]

Lovely sword Chris, but would this be classified as a 1796 type? I'd be very interested to hear what the other experts opinions are.

[mrcjgscott]

Originally Posted by Shakethetrees

It appears to have a bone grip, right?

I believe so Shakethetrees, although I could not tell you from which animal it came.

[Jens Nordlunde]

In Robert Elgood's new book Arms and Armour ar the Jaipur Court, he writes as follow on page 73.
"A Jaipur copy of en English Officer's sabre with basket hilt and pierced silver and silver gilt scabbard in similar floral style is stated to have been made for a captain Man Singh of Jaipur".
A note says that it was shown in Hendley's Memorials og the Jeypore Exhibibition 1883, plate XLIX (attached).
In the text to the plate Hendley writes.
"1. Sword. Talwar. Basket hilt. 2. Scabbard of no 1. Pierced floral pattern. Silver and gold chasing. Colst of 1. and 2. 200 rs.
Made at Jeypore for Captain Man Singh."

[sirupate]

What a beauty Jens

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

In Robert Elgood's new book Arms and Armour ar the Jaipur Court, he writes as follow on page 73.
"A Jaipur copy of en English Officer's sabre with basket hilt and pierced silver and silver gilt scabbard in similar floral style is stated to have been made for a captain Man Singh of Jaipur".
A note says that it was shown in Hendley's Memorials og the Jeypore Exhibibition 1883, plate XLIX (attached).
In the text to the plate Hendley writes.
"1. Sword. Talwar. Basket hilt. 2. Scabbard of no 1. Pierced floral pattern. Silver and gold chasing. Colst of 1. and 2. 200 rs.
Made at Jeypore for Captain Man Singh."

[Silver John]

Hi Chris & Jens,

I thought I'd posted up a crude translation last night, but it's either still waiting for a Mods approval or it's been lost in the ether, so I'll try again.

I don't know if it'll be any help in identifying the origins, but the six characters on the top picture look like: Ri Ya S Ta Ha Taa.

Not sure about the 5th character as it's a bit blurred.

On the other example. The numbers are 1 and 4. The two characters look like Ga and Ja though there are additional marks on them (vowel diacritics? that I don't recognise)

[Jens Nordlunde]

You are right, the last number is 4 and not 8 - sorry.
Jens

[Helleri]

What's up with the hinged guard on post #14 ?

[Jim McDougall]

Hello Scinde,
Great handle!!!!!
Thank you for reviving this great thread, and it would be excellent to get more going on these fascinating swords of the British Raj.

The sabre I have (which I do not have access to presently) is one of the Paget pattern (#6480) which was India Stores Pattern with three bar gothic hilt (M1821) and had a blade similar to M1796 with hatchet point .
If I recall there seems to have been two variations one to Bengal, one to Madras of 31" and 33" lengths. I do not have the measurements on mine.
The blade, while of the M1796 form, was not as heavy.

The MOLE stamp on blade back near forte.

The hilt was virtually identical to the British colonial sabre shown in
"Cut and Thrust Weapons" ( E. Wagner,1967, p.231, pl.8).

The marking 21C, if I recall was on the hilt, stamped with numbers and letter in line, same size.

The marking you describe sounds intriguing, and would like to know more on it . By your pseudonym, sounds like you have a keen interest in the Frontier Field Force, please tell me more.

Welcome to our forum!!!


Ariel, very nice example!!! especially with inscribed blade.


All best regards
Jim

[drac2k]

Here are what I believe to be 2 more Indian swords; the one with the modified guard, I think was with the Indian Mountain division.That sword is also marked on the guard " O.F.A. 20," and on top of the scabbard R.11.00 & 42 R A .

[scinde]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Hello Scinde,
Great handle!!!!!
Thank you for reviving this great thread, and it would be excellent to get more going on these fascinating swords of the British Raj.

The sabre I have (which I do not have access to presently) is one of the Paget pattern (#6480) which was India Stores Pattern with three bar gothic hilt (M1821) and had a blade similar to M1796 with hatchet point .
If I recall there seems to have been two variations one to Bengal, one to Madras of 31" and 33" lengths. I do not have the measurements on mine.
The blade, while of the M1796 form, was not as heavy.

The MOLE stamp on blade back near forte.

The hilt was virtually identical to the British colonial sabre shown in
"Cut and Thrust Weapons" ( E. Wagner,1967, p.231, pl.8).

The marking 21C, if I recall was on the hilt, stamped with numbers and letter in line, same size.

The marking you describe sounds intriguing, and would like to know more on it . By your pseudonym, sounds like you have a keen interest in the Frontier Field Force, please tell me more.

Welcome to our forum!!!


Ariel, very nice example!!! especially with inscribed blade.


All best regards
Jim

Hi Jim,

Thanks for response and welcome. The marking on back edge of blade near hilt is fairly typical for Mole and others, some Wilkinson blades marked on ricasso; whereas from my observations, regimental markings are generally found on the hilt, but sometimes on the blade. I'd still be interested to know the dimensions of your blade when convenient and if possible.

I've held a developing interest in EIC and Indian Army for something close to forty years, which primarily included the subjects of uniform, accoutrements, associated bits & pieces and of course swords, now primarily swords.

In relation to European Officers swords, my collection covers mainly cavalry, but also touching on Artillery, Engineers and Infantry. Alongside this I've also maintained a fairly serious interest in troopers swords, and find that (unless point broken and re-ground, which I very much doubt), the blades circa 1860-1900 across Bengal, Madras and Bombay can vary from nominally 30" inches up to 33" as you say, with considerable variation in hilt type.

Interests to do with Cavalry & Irregular Cavalry etc., one regiment in particular the 3rd Bombay Light Cavalry, as I have the sword that was carried by Captain Forbes when he lead the charge of the 3rd Bombay Cavalry at Kooshab (Persia) in 1857.

Core areas of study which have developed are Scinde Camel Corps, Poona Horse, Scinde Horse and Corps of Guides, Punjab Cavalry, their swords and others.

Regards,

Gordon

[RSWORD]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

this one was in my collection. Blade and scabbard are wootz but dont think its Indian?

Lofty,

Yours is Persian and early 20th century.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Chris,
I think I see two numbers on your hilt, the number '1' in the middle of the text, and '8' at the end of the text, but what the text inbetween says I don't know.

[mrcjgscott]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Chris,
I think I see two numbers on your hilt, the number '1' in the middle of the text, and '8' at the end of the text, but what the text inbetween says I don't know.

Thank you Jens,

That is certainly more than I knew when I woke up this morning! I would imagine they are either a unit designation or possibly a rack number (perhaps both)

Kind regards,

Chris