Odd Sword

Jim McDougall · 29th July 2015, 06:04 PM

Ibrahiim, thank you so much for your tenacity in pursuing this curious inscription further!
While all of this is indeed complex, and very much could be red herring matter, it is fascinating to analyze. The complexities of the Hebrew language and the gemetria, as well as those of the Kabbala are factors often deeply involved in sword blade inscriptions of Europe and certainly may well have been involved in the Middle East and Arabia as well.

I do hope others will join in with the intriguing mystery this blade presents, as clearly this elusive inscription is almost a taunting conundrum.

Andreas · 30th July 2015, 03:21 PM

My Latin is a bit rusty (to say the least

), but the letters U and V being interchangeable, the inscription could be read as A DIVUM, which can be translated as FROM GOD
Regards

fernando · 30th July 2015, 04:11 PM

What about ABIDUM ? a Latin term that in portuguese translates as: vai-te pois; in french translates as: va-t’en donc. In english would be: Go, then ... or: hence go. As if inciting the sword to go through

Andreas · 30th July 2015, 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

What about ABIDUM ? a Latin term that in portuguese translates as: vai-te pois; in french translates as: va-t’en donc. In english would be: Go, then ... or: hence go. As if inciting the sword to go through

Or telling the potential foe to make himself scarce! But the third and fourth letters do seem identical.
Regards
Andreas

fernando · 30th July 2015, 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andreas

Or telling the potential foe to make himself scarce!...

Good point!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andreas

...But the third and fourth letters do seem identical.

Yes and no ... as also each of the other letters seems to belong to a different style.
Pity that the pictures quality is so limited

.

Andreas · 30th July 2015, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Good point!

Pity that the pictures quality is so limited

.

Agreed!

A.alnakkas · 30th July 2015, 05:51 PM

I know the owner of this sword, he have sent me photos before and not much was found in the inscription by people whom I asked to examine. Will ask him again for clearer photos if he still owns it. Although there is nothing unusual about it, its part of a well established sword type that mainly has trade blades and Omani mounts.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 31st July 2015, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Ibrahiim, thank you so much for your tenacity in pursuing this curious inscription further!
While all of this is indeed complex, and very much could be red herring matter, it is fascinating to analyze. The complexities of the Hebrew language and the gemetria, as well as those of the Kabbala are factors often deeply involved in sword blade inscriptions of Europe and certainly may well have been involved in the Middle East and Arabia as well.

I do hope others will join in with the intriguing mystery this blade presents, as clearly this elusive inscription is almost a taunting conundrum.

Salaams Jim and thank you for the encouraging words. I have examined these peculiar capital letters and traced some to southern Italian regions such as Messapic and Old Church Slavonic in particular the A shape with the small vee shaped crossbar and a slight comma diving off to the left side top.

I have analysed about 50 separate language forms but am little closer to the full picture though I feel it is in the general area Hebrew, Latin, Greek..I am pretty well convinced it is Hebrew of the special form shown at ....https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rashi_script but I cannot find the special A in this form.... could it be mixed?

Where does the special A form come from??; Old Church Slavonic ....From Wikepedia Quote "Old Church Slavonic (pronunciation: /ˌoʊld tʃɜrtʃ sləˈvɒnɪk/, /-slæˈ-/),[2] also known as Old Church Slavic (/ˌoʊld tʃɜrtʃ ˈslaːvɪk/;[2] often abbreviated to OCS; self-name словѣ́ньскъ ѩзꙑ́къ, slověnĭskŭ językŭ), was the first Slavic literary language.

The 9th-century Byzantine Greek missionaries Saints Cyril and Methodius are credited with standardizing the language and using it in translating the Bible and other Ancient Greek ecclesiastical texts as part of the Christianisation of the Slavic peoples.[3] It is thought to have been based primarily on the dialect of the 9th century Byzantine Slavs living in the Province of Thessalonica (now in Greece).

It played an important role in the history of the Slavic languages and served as a basis and model for later Church Slavonic traditions, and some Eastern Orthodox and Eastern Catholic churches use this later Church Slavonic as a liturgical language to this day. As the oldest attested Slavic language, OCS provides important evidence for the features of Proto-Slavic, the reconstructed common ancestor of all Slavic languages".Unquote.

Are they linked...? It may be noted that The Second Book of Enoch was preserved in Old Church Slavonic, although the original most certainly had been Greek or even Hebrew or Aramaic.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Iain · 31st July 2015, 03:04 PM

Actually this was deciphered thanks to the help and expertise of a friend some time ago (he's a member here but I will leave it to him to elaborate if he chooses) when I was first asked to look at it. Its a Solingen blade from the 16th century and the inscription is de Ioan, a variation of the popular Ioanes "me fecit" inscription.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 31st July 2015, 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iain

Actually this was deciphered thanks to the help and expertise of a friend some time ago (he's a member here but I will leave it to him to elaborate if he chooses) when I was first asked to look at it. Its a Solingen blade from the 16th century and the inscription is de Ioan, a variation of the popular Ioanes "me fecit" inscription.

I think you mean the sword that has just arrived at thread not the one at #1. The Pure Mutrah. 1970 or later ~ Fake.

I assume the one you mean is inscribed in a Latin format whilst I believe the #1 weapon is in some other language which I suspect is Hebrew ...or possibly OCS.

Iain · 31st July 2015, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

I think you mean the sword that has just arrived at thread not the one at #1.

Of course, I am directly referencing where I was mentioned.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 31st July 2015, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iain

Of course, I am directly referencing where I was mentioned.

Thank you for the information. I think it is one thing to get involved and crack the inscription but it is unsatisfactory to be hoodwinked into thinking that a sword is genuine when in fact it is put together by expert forgers...It is the same as someone sticking a French blade on a Japanese hilt...is it not? I have known the owner of this sword for 20 years and I believe he has been completely ripped off ...This is a rehilt done after 1970...and is a complete con. I wish he had observed these pages much earlier ...he may have also directly referenced where he had mentioned also...

Iain · 31st July 2015, 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Thank you for the information. I think it is one thing to get involved and crack the inscription but it is unsatisfactory to be hoodwinked into thinking that a sword is genuine when in fact it is put together by expert forgers...It is the same as someone sticking a French blade on a Japanese hilt...is it not? I have known the owner of this sword for 20 years and I believe he has been completely ripped off ...This is a rehilt done after 1970...and is a complete con. I wish he had observed these pages much earlier ...he may have also directly referenced where he had mentioned also...

The blade is what it is, a nice and old European blade. I won't comment on the mounting and age.

fernando · 31st July 2015, 04:32 PM

One may as well presume (not assume) that these are inscriptions made by a language native; even going into the fantasy of them being made in exotic idioms. But naturaly we should also admit that they are made by iliterate smiths, with an intention to either deceive or at least create an enticing atmosphere.
The last inscription SVARES is potentially an atempt to write the Portuguese name SOARES. The V being used as U, in early times and up until late, makes it sound precisely the same; hence a smart smith out there spelling the name SOARES as he heard it.
Such family name was currently used at the period (and up until now) and is related, for one, with discoveries navigators of high rank.

.

31st July 2015, 04:32 PM	#14
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	One may as well presume (not assume) that these are inscriptions made by a language native; even going into the fantasy of them being made in exotic idioms. But naturaly we should also admit that they are made by iliterate smiths, with an intention to either deceive or at least create an enticing atmosphere. The last inscription SVARES is potentially an atempt to write the Portuguese name SOARES. The V being used as U, in early times and up until late, makes it sound precisely the same; hence a smart smith out there spelling the name SOARES as he heard it. Such family name was currently used at the period (and up until now) and is related, for one, with discoveries navigators of high rank. . Last edited by fernando; 31st July 2015 at 05:22 PM.

29th July 2015, 06:04 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,284	Ibrahiim, thank you so much for your tenacity in pursuing this curious inscription further! While all of this is indeed complex, and very much could be red herring matter, it is fascinating to analyze. The complexities of the Hebrew language and the gemetria, as well as those of the Kabbala are factors often deeply involved in sword blade inscriptions of Europe and certainly may well have been involved in the Middle East and Arabia as well. I do hope others will join in with the intriguing mystery this blade presents, as clearly this elusive inscription is almost a taunting conundrum.

30th July 2015, 03:21 PM	#2
Andreas Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Ionian Islands, Greece Posts: 96	My Latin is a bit rusty (to say the least ), but the letters U and V being interchangeable, the inscription could be read as A DIVUM, which can be translated as FROM GOD Regards

30th July 2015, 04:11 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	What about ABIDUM ? a Latin term that in portuguese translates as: vai-te pois; in french translates as: va-t’en donc. In english would be: Go, then ... or: hence go. As if inciting the sword to go through

30th July 2015, 05:51 PM	#7
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,340	I know the owner of this sword, he have sent me photos before and not much was found in the inscription by people whom I asked to examine. Will ask him again for clearer photos if he still owns it. Although there is nothing unusual about it, its part of a well established sword type that mainly has trade blades and Omani mounts.

31st July 2015, 03:04 PM	#9
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,717	Actually this was deciphered thanks to the help and expertise of a friend some time ago (he's a member here but I will leave it to him to elaborate if he chooses) when I was first asked to look at it. Its a Solingen blade from the 16th century and the inscription is de Ioan, a variation of the popular Ioanes "me fecit" inscription.