Anglo-Indian army swords

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Thank you so much Jens!
I am looking forward to what we can develop on this thread which will attend to these interesting regimental and hybrid forms, which of course were concurrent to the traditional form discussed on your other thread

I think one instance (which I need to retrieve the source) where British soldiers were amazed at the incredible (though ghastly) effectiveness of the Indian swordsmen with their tulwars. To their astonishment, they soon discovered that these tulwars were often mounted with British blades, mostly from their now obsolete M1796 light cavalry sabres, but honed razor sharp.
I have seen a good number of these, one with an Osborne & Gunby blade, another, actually a M1788 blade in a 'Persian shamshir' style hilt, and of course others.
When British swords contractors began supplying swords to the native cavalry regiments, it is interesting to note that some of these, notably Bourne & Son, continued making the M1796 stirrup hilt type into the late 19th century due to their extreme favor by the Indian troopers .

The famed Wilkinson Sword Co. produced many swords for the Indian units, and if I recall they came in varied blade lengths, according to preferences in Bengal and Madras. These were also of another supplanted pattern, the M1822 light cavalry sabre, and in the Wilkinson catalogs known as the 'colonial style', with the three bar 'gothic ' style hilt.
A good number of these were made by MOLE, Robert Mole * Co. of Birmingham, in around the 1880s and were subcontractors to Wilkinson.
I have seen cast brass hilt of traditional tulwar form also produced by Mole.

In one of the books written by Wilkinson, there are listings of the type or pattern swords preferred by various units, and as mentioned. I need to find it!

Some of the units chose the M1853 pattern cavalry sword, and in a most interesting case, a number of these were produce by a private firm, the Rodwell Co. for one of the railways! Many of the large firms and organizations maintained their own security forces, such as with this case .


These are just opening thoughts recollected to get things going, and I really look forward to additions and observations. Meanwhile, to see if I can find those notes!!!

Jim mentioned in this thread a variety of British influences on Indian blades. Below are some examples of Indian blades and one Afghan one that borrow both from British characteristics/styles/makes that blade smiths sought to mimic, combined with hundreds of years old native influences.

[CharlesS]

More pics of the poulowar....note also the military style steel chape.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Charles,
Interesting pictures - I have ligthened the Afghan one so you see the details better.
The Afghan hilt is quite unusual, and the hand guard added later - a very nice one.

[Jim McDougall]

OMG!!! THIS THREAD IS PHENOMENAL!!!
Thank you so much everybody for these amazing entries, and now that I catch my breath, Charles, that is the most amazing example of these British Raj hybrids I have ever seen! the paluoar!!! and then there is the tulwar with British 'gothic' folding guard!!

Chris, I cannot thank you enough for being the motivator in creating this thread as you have well initiated more activity in the study of the Indian tulwar concurrently on its own thread.

I think this is a textbook example of how to split an interesting item or topic from one thread to another so that the comingling does not defeat discussion on either. Jens, thank you for starting this thread, and everyone for participating with such great entries .

Chris, note on Charles 'paluaor' the fluting and the quadranted cross guard. This is what I was mentioning on the tulwars Jens and I were talking about on the tulwars from these Northwest regions. I would point out that Afghanistan in these times was distinctly considered part of India. Also that these 'paluoars' are actually a form of tulwar, notably associated with Afghan regions and reflecting Deccani and Mughal influences.

Charles, it is fascinating to see this blade, especially designated to MOLE!
It looks like watered steel, and with my incredibly poor understanding of the metallurgy of these blades, how is that possible ? I have seen plain tulwars attributed to MOLE, but nothing like this.

Its great that you guys have been in touch with Mr Wilkinson-Latham, who is probably one of the most phenomenal knowledge bases on these swords and Indian army weaponry. I do hope we might see some of the material mentioned here.

Chris, well noted on those 'Paget' pattern sabres, which indeed were M1822 hilts, and as mentioned, using the distinct heavier M1796 type blades.
I have only one of these (by MOLE) designated to 21C, 21st cavalry (Dalys Horse if I recall) which was in the Frontier Field Force.

Shake the Trees , still looking for data on Poona Horse, and also would like to see a sword of thiers!
I have seen Bombay Cavalry examples, but those are only ones so far that I can recall.

Thank you everyone, this is a great discussion.
and Charles, thank you again so much for that 'centerfold' !!! paluoar and the tulwar with British guard.

[mrcjgscott]

Originally Posted by CharlesS

Jim mentioned in this thread a variety of British influences on Indian blades. Below are some examples of Indian blades and one Afghan one that borrow both from British characteristics/styles/makes that blade smiths sought to mimic, combined with hundreds of years old native influences.

Charles, those are some truly jaw dropping pieces! Thank you so much for posting them up here. Simply stunning!

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Chris, I cannot thank you enough for being the motivator in creating this thread as you have well initiated more activity in the study of the Indian tulwar concurrently on its own thread.

The pleasure is all mine. It is refreshing to be part of a forum which is so willing to freely share information for the greater benefit of all members.

Many thanks for pointing out the subtle stylistic differences on these tulwars. It is so important to note such clues, especially when dipping ones toe in an unfamiliar collecting area.

I have been in touch with Robert, and he has very graciously given me permission to reproduce his photographs and information here, which I shall do in due course. Robert is the very epitome of a true researcher, and his generous approach of freely sharing his discoveries and information is an inspiration to all.

Kind regards,

Chris

[CharlesS]

Jim,

Thanks for all the kind remarks. The MOLE blade is homogenous steel.

[A.alnakkas]

this one was in my collection. Blade and scabbard are wootz but dont think its Indian?

[sirupate]

Some fabulous swords and information arising through this fabulous thread

[mrcjgscott]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

this one was in my collection. Blade and scabbard are wootz but dont think its Indian?

Hello A.alnakkas,

Many thanks for posting these examples. The first one you show looks very similar to some Imperial Russian swords I have seen. Does it carry and markings to the blade?

I have two similar to the second sword you show, but both with different crests to the grip. I presume they are for different Indian states. I shall take some photographs of my examples for comparison.

[RSWORD]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

this one was in my collection. Blade and scabbard are wootz but dont think its Indian?

Lofty,

Yours is Persian and early 20th century.

[scinde]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

OMG!!! THIS THREAD IS PHENOMENAL!!!
Thank you so much everybody for these amazing entries, and now that I catch my breath, Charles, that is the most amazing example of these British Raj hybrids I have ever seen! the paluoar!!! and then there is the tulwar with British 'gothic' folding guard!!

Chris, I cannot thank you enough for being the motivator in creating this thread as you have well initiated more activity in the study of the Indian tulwar concurrently on its own thread.

I think this is a textbook example of how to split an interesting item or topic from one thread to another so that the comingling does not defeat discussion on either. Jens, thank you for starting this thread, and everyone for participating with such great entries .

Chris, note on Charles 'paluaor' the fluting and the quadranted cross guard. This is what I was mentioning on the tulwars Jens and I were talking about on the tulwars from these Northwest regions. I would point out that Afghanistan in these times was distinctly considered part of India. Also that these 'paluoars' are actually a form of tulwar, notably associated with Afghan regions and reflecting Deccani and Mughal influences.

Charles, it is fascinating to see this blade, especially designated to MOLE!
It looks like watered steel, and with my incredibly poor understanding of the metallurgy of these blades, how is that possible ? I have seen plain tulwars attributed to MOLE, but nothing like this.

Its great that you guys have been in touch with Mr Wilkinson-Latham, who is probably one of the most phenomenal knowledge bases on these swords and Indian army weaponry. I do hope we might see some of the material mentioned here.

Chris, well noted on those 'Paget' pattern sabres, which indeed were M1822 hilts, and as mentioned, using the distinct heavier M1796 type blades.
I have only one of these (by MOLE) designated to 21C, 21st cavalry (Dalys Horse if I recall) which was in the Frontier Field Force.

Shake the Trees , still looking for data on Poona Horse, and also would like to see a sword of thiers!
I have seen Bombay Cavalry examples, but those are only ones so far that I can recall.

Thank you everyone, this is a great discussion.
and Charles, thank you again so much for that 'centerfold' !!! paluoar and the tulwar with British guard.

Hi Jim,

Just new to this forum and mainly interested in EIC and Indian Army, and wonder if I can ask specifically how your 21st Cavalry sword is identified. Would it be with the numerals 21 encircled with a large capital "C"?; and could you also mention the length of the blade, width at ricasso, and whether or not the blade is swamped and broadens before the point.

Gordon

[ariel]

OK, here is mine: 1796 handle, Indian Muslim blade with " No brave like Ali ..etc", pattern welded, dated 1165 ( 1751-2 Gregorian)