Proposed German Cultural Property Protection Law: likely problem for ethnographic arms and armor collectors

A. G. Maisey · 28th July 2015, 11:55 PM

If one sees a steamroller coming down the street, one does not stand in front of it, but finds a way around it.

spiral · 29th July 2015, 12:13 AM

A fellow kukri collector currently has legal trouble in Europe for importing a few kukris from Australia, including a very old ivory handled kukri,{amogst others.} without the correct cities paperwork...

He bought it assuming it was a bone hilt,.....From bad photos...

The prosecutor's have found a photo over 15 years old & 3 owners apart {All members of this forum...} which described it as ivory on an American forum.

There using that old post as evidence against him...

spiral

Ian · 29th July 2015, 02:00 AM

Fortunately, there are scientific tests that can distinguish bone from ivory, so if it is bone he should have no problem. If it is ivory, can he reasonably be held accountable for an opinion expressed in a remote source that he failed to detect? It would seem that the burden of proof in Europe is that one has to take into account every conceivable source of information, otherwise you are liable.

For this reason I am very reluctant to sell items to folks living in EU.

Ian.

Quote:

Originally Posted by spiral

A fellow kukri collector currently has legal trouble in Europe for importing a few kukris from Australia, including a very old ivory handled kukri,{amogst others.} without the correct cities paperwork...

He bought it assuming it was a bone hilt,.....From bad photos...

The prosecutor's have found a photo over 15 years old & 3 owners apart {All members of this forum...} which described it as ivory on an American forum.

There using that old post as evidence against him...

spiral

A. G. Maisey · 29th July 2015, 02:09 AM

Yes Ian, Europe can be very difficult in more ways than, when it comes to sale into Europe of edged weapons.

Rick · 29th July 2015, 02:31 AM

Items of ivory have disappeared from our local auction house's Japanese, Asian and other auctions .
Before this Spring such items were always listed with the notation that they could not be shipped to California .

Tim Simmons · 29th July 2015, 07:17 AM

Could this be rather muddled reaction to the criminal trade in artefacts by a somewhat disturbing group that follow a deranged view of a middle Eastern faith.

spiral · 29th July 2015, 07:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

Fortunately, there are scientific tests that can distinguish bone from ivory, so if it is bone he should have no problem. If it is ivory, can he reasonably be held accountable for an opinion expressed in a remote source that he failed to detect? It would seem that the burden of proof in Europe is that one has to take into account every conceivable source of information, otherwise you are liable.

For this reason I am very reluctant to sell items to folks living in EU.

Ian.

Sadly in this case it is ivory. There are testing a horn handled piece to determine its species though.

After all with Cites the law is broken even it is due to ignorance of the law .{No legal paperwork}

I suspect the kukris, {They seized all 4 of them as in the same parcel.} will not be returned.

There all {IMHO} early 20th century. One has a 22ct. gold scabbard fittings. 2 are silver fittings.

spiral

drac2k · 29th July 2015, 04:59 PM

Unfortunately these items will probably be incinerated with other cultural treasures.The Taliban and Isis destroy historical artifacts as do our "Western," governments;what is the difference in these cases ?
To our German friends, if you are told by a government official that "to know what is in the law, you have to pass it first," duck and Run !!!!

Tim Simmons · 1st August 2015, 09:41 AM

The Taliban and Isis destroy historical artifacts as do our "Western," governments;what is the difference in these cases ?

Interesting point of view. However the "Western" judicial vandalism only happens when you export the items. The vandalism is carried out in the attempt to save for the worlds future generations, endangered flora and fauna. I do not think it comperes to the destruction of art to deny the worlds people of their past. I fear this is bit of mission creep from the original topic.

ariel · 1st August 2015, 12:10 PM

Under this law, a work of art looted by the Nazis and residing in German hands ( private or public) can no longer be returned to the legal heirs. Having spent 70+ years on the German soil, it will obviously acquire a mystical aura of a German "cultural object" :-(((

Not long ago a similar logic was used to deny claims of legal heirs against a "collection" of a former Nazi, officially responsible for actual confiscation of art objects from the Jews sent to Auschwitz.

Now it will no longer be a "logical legal argument"; it will be an official German law.

trenchwarfare · 29th July 2015, 01:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

If one sees a steamroller coming down the street, one does not stand in front of it, but finds a way around it.

Unfortunately, the average citizen (of any country) is like a cartoon character, and will run in front of it, till he trips and falls. Or just lay down, and accept the inevitable.

29th July 2015, 02:31 AM	#5
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	The Shotgun Approach Items of ivory have disappeared from our local auction house's Japanese, Asian and other auctions . Before this Spring such items were always listed with the notation that they could not be shipped to California .

29th July 2015, 07:17 AM	#6
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,843	The road to hell is paved with good intention. Could this be rather muddled reaction to the criminal trade in artefacts by a somewhat disturbing group that follow a deranged view of a middle Eastern faith.

1st August 2015, 12:10 PM	#10
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Under this law, a work of art looted by the Nazis and residing in German hands ( private or public) can no longer be returned to the legal heirs. Having spent 70+ years on the German soil, it will obviously acquire a mystical aura of a German "cultural object" :-((( Not long ago a similar logic was used to deny claims of legal heirs against a "collection" of a former Nazi, officially responsible for actual confiscation of art objects from the Jews sent to Auschwitz. Now it will no longer be a "logical legal argument"; it will be an official German law. Last edited by ariel; 1st August 2015 at 12:46 PM.

28th July 2015, 11:55 PM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	If one sees a steamroller coming down the street, one does not stand in front of it, but finds a way around it.

29th July 2015, 12:13 AM	#2
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	A fellow kukri collector currently has legal trouble in Europe for importing a few kukris from Australia, including a very old ivory handled kukri,{amogst others.} without the correct cities paperwork... He bought it assuming it was a bone hilt,.....From bad photos... The prosecutor's have found a photo over 15 years old & 3 owners apart {All members of this forum...} which described it as ivory on an American forum. There using that old post as evidence against him... spiral

29th July 2015, 02:09 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Yes Ian, Europe can be very difficult in more ways than, when it comes to sale into Europe of edged weapons.

29th July 2015, 04:59 PM	#8
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,255	Unfortunately these items will probably be incinerated with other cultural treasures.The Taliban and Isis destroy historical artifacts as do our "Western," governments;what is the difference in these cases ? To our German friends, if you are told by a government official that "to know what is in the law, you have to pass it first," duck and Run !!!!

1st August 2015, 09:41 AM	#9
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,843	The Taliban and Isis destroy historical artifacts as do our "Western," governments;what is the difference in these cases ? Interesting point of view. However the "Western" judicial vandalism only happens when you export the items. The vandalism is carried out in the attempt to save for the worlds future generations, endangered flora and fauna. I do not think it comperes to the destruction of art to deny the worlds people of their past. I fear this is bit of mission creep from the original topic.