Anglo-Indian army swords

[mrcjgscott]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

The famed Wilkinson Sword Co. produced many swords for the Indian units, and if I recall they came in varied blade lengths, according to preferences in Bengal and Madras. These were also of another supplanted pattern, the M1822 light cavalry sabre, and in the Wilkinson catalogs known as the 'colonial style', with the three bar 'gothic ' style hilt.

Just to get the ball rolling, here is one such catalogue advertisement, dating to 1912. Some of these patterns had very long service lives.

[Tim Simmons]

Something like this.http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ght=Indian+art

[A.alnakkas]

Hello,

I have a sabre with a European influenced hilt but an Indian blade. The hilt has Urdu script on it so could be from Afghanistan or modern day Pakistan. Will share photos soonish :-)))

[sirupate]

Great link Ted,
Scott I think Robert Wilkinson-Latham put similar pictures up on SFI with details if I remember correctly

[Shakethetrees]

Back to a reply I posted a week or so back under the Afghan Pistols thread...

Anyone with sabers or swords attributed to the Poonah Irregular Horse?

I posted a pistol from c. 1850 marked to this unit and would love to see the blades they carried, specifically during the Persia campaign mid 1850's.

Thanks in advance!

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Shakethetrees

Back to a reply I posted a week or so back under the Afghan Pistols thread...

Anyone with sabers or swords attributed to the Poonah Irregular Horse?

I posted a pistol from c. 1850 marked to this unit and would love to see the blades they carried, specifically during the Persia campaign mid 1850's.

Thanks in advance!

I spent some time with a few more references.
Staying with the pistol you originally posted on the 'Afghan pistol' thread, the example you have with the lionhead butt cap has an example illustrated in "British Military Pistols 1603-1888", 1978, Robert Brooker, plate 124.
On the lock, the same POONAH IRREGULAR HORSE in same location, in lieu of the EIC rampant lion which is on earlier EIC pistols.
Apparantly Garden & Son, Piccadilly, were one of the largest outfitters to these 'irregular cavalry units' through the 1850s.
In the Brooker reference, there are pistols to the IRREGULAR 2ND CAVALRY and SCINDE IRREGULAR HORSE, both stamped in this same manner and most notably with the same lionhead butt cap.

As the designation POONAH IRREGULAR HORSE was used from 1847 until 1861, it is likely the pistol is of this period, and of course may well have been used during the Persian campaign of 1856-7, in which this unit participated in the charge at Kooshab. As you noted, your pistol was made by Harrington & Scott of Birmingham (who became partners in 1849).

The illustration of a Ratore Rajput of 34th Prince Albert Victors Own POONA HORSE was a watercolor by Maj. A C Lovett, CBE, in 1910 and appears in "The Armies of India" by Lt. Gen. Sir George MacMunn, 1911 (repr1984).
These illustrations are held by the National Army Museum.

The book "The Indian Army" by Boris Mollo, 1981, has an illustration of Col. Charles Swanston, Poona Irregular Horse c.1818 (p.42) by an unknown artist. The figure is standing next to a horse, and has a pistol in sash and apparently a mameluke type officers sabre There is no other detail in text as far as I could find.

As far as swords used by this regiment in the Persian campaigns, since the Paget pattern swords were not around until 1860s, it might be presumed that East India Company swords or outfitted officers type swords might have been in use. The 'Company' had ordered as many as 10,000 of the 1796 type light cavalry sabres in the 1790s. According to David Harding, no EIC markings were ever on swords (I do know earlier they were on bayonets).

Though after the 1857 mutiny, the EIC was effectively ceased, it seems possible some regular British military patterns might have been in use, but I have not yet found more on that.

At this point it is far more likely to find examples or data on the weapons for officers of this unit than the troopers. It is interesting that the Garden & Co. lionhead butt caps seem peculiar to that firm, and supplying these 'irregular' units. The term is with regard to the fact they these units were usually 'sillidar' (troopers supply own horses) and usually had just a few officers controlling the unit. The squadrons (risallahs) were as many as ten with up about 500 men in each.

[VANDOO]

THIS IS VERY INTERESTING AND A FIELD I KNOW VERY LITTLE OF SO LOTS TO LEARN. I SEE LOTS OF METALS ON THE INDIA TROOPS SO THEY MUST BE WARRIORS OF NOTE AS METALS WERE NOT LIGHTLY GIVEN IN THOSE TIMES. PERHAPS IT MIGHT BE POSSIBLE TO LEARN ACTIONS WHERE EARNED AS WELL AS THEIR IDENTITY'S FROM A CLOSE UP PICTURE BY ONE FAMILIAR WITH INDIA AND METALS.

[mrcjgscott]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

Something like this.http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ght=Indian+art

That's an interesting sword Tim,

I had one of those in my collection. The hilt is certainly based on the 1853 type, and I had a whole subsection of swords with various styles of hilt and blades which looked like they had been chopped together from various pattern designs!

Back to you're sword, I shall have to check my notes to see if a unit attribution was ever made for it. I can't remember if mine was marked or not.

Kind regards,

Chris

[mrcjgscott]

Here is a comparison shot between an early 1796 pattern light cavalry troopers sword (produced 1798) and an Indian Cavalry sword with three bar hilt.

Note the similarity in blade shape. Some of these early 1796 patterns were used in India in there own right by East India Company units, as were old stocks of the 1788 LC sword.
I have also seen original 1796 blades rehilted with the three bar hilt for Indian use.

However, the design proved so popular that 1796 style blades were reproduced under various guises right up until at least the First World War.

Robert Wilkinson Latham and I have shared various correspondence and images over the years. I shall ask him if he will give me permission to share some images from Wilkinson circa 1914, showing these 1796 style blades being finished.

There also similar British made blades, known as "Paget" pattern, which are not as beefy as the 1796 style, but do feature on many Indian cavalry swords with distinctive broad curved cutting blades which remained popular in Indian service, long after the much straighter and only slightly curved cut & thrust type sword became prevalent in UK service.

[sirupate]

Two very nice swords there Scott, that would be great if you can get permission from Robert, he was incredibly helpful to me on the Mk4 kukri, top chap.
PS There is quite a bit about the Indian Cavalry refusing to use the straighter English pattern and holding out for the 1796 LCS type blade in 'Swordsman of the British Empire'

[mrcjgscott]

Originally Posted by sirupate

Two very nice swords there Scott'

Thanks Simon. Given our recent discussions over various fora, I thought you might recall that my name is infact, Chris. I'll happily respond to Mr Scott or mrcjgscott also if you prefer.

Originally Posted by sirupate

PS There is quite a bit about the Indian Cavalry refusing to use the straighter English pattern and holding out for the 1796 LCS type blade in 'Swordsman of the British Empire'

That sounds relevant to our current discussion, perhaps you would transcribe it for us?

[sirupate]

Sorry Chris, you can download a PDF version (which I have on one of my memory sticks), if that doesn't appeal I'll see if I can find it for you, all the best Simon