Features of this keris.

BluErf · 23rd December 2005, 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ki Jayamalelo

The mass production of Madura might have followers but most of them are not the real high keris culture.

Hi Ki Jayamalelo,

Alas... 99.9999% of us keris collectors can never hope to own, touch, or even see a high-culture keris...

But your comments are certainly necessary to see where the high end of the bar is. Empu Kumis used to share with us the features of a good keris, in accordance to his very strict standards.

Unfortunately, pictures of good high-culture kerises are far and few in between, so it is difficult to appreciate the aesthetic nuances that the words are trying to describe.

Battara · 24th December 2005, 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BluErf

Hi Ki Jayamalelo,

Alas... 99.9999% of us keris collectors can never hope to own, touch, or even see a high-culture keris...

.

You're not kidding. I have a better end Bali keris that I am 10 years now in restoring. The only true high-culture keris I have ever seen up close and touched (

) was one that Rsword brought to Timonium last year - a Bugis keris with great pamor and covered in 22k gold (but missing a bottom part

). It was beautiful, but I could not come near affording it (though I wanted to very much

).

nechesh · 24th December 2005, 08:40 PM

I'm afraid it's even worse than you think Jose. I didn't see the keris Rick brought to the last seminar, so i could be wrong, but if he was asking less than $50,000.00 it probably didn't qualify or he didn't truly know what he had and was asking too little. This don't mean that it wasn't a very nice keris. Don't let the gold fool you, anyone can add that on to a well made blade and make it look like something even more than it is.

We tend to see a lot more dress that could clothe a high end keris than the keris themselves, probably because high end dress is still being made. Most often the keris we see in such fancy dress are decent to poor, with the dress meant to sell the package. As has been implied, these "high culture" keris are raely, if ever, seen by mere mortal eyes.

BluErf · 24th December 2005, 10:56 PM

I don't think there is a "cutoff price" like US$50k that differentiates a high culture keris from a normal keris.

It depends on what the owner wants for the keris, which, for some lucky guy, could be US$1 because the aging owner thinks he is the best person to look after the keris for the next few decades.

I also think that a high-end keris is not necessarily a high-culture keris, because high-culture kerises implies extremely high levels of artistry which usually means it is expensive, while a high-end keris can be made from very expensive materials, but of mediocre artistry.

And as for decent to poor kerises in high-end dress, apart from those done up by unscrupulous dealers, there are instances of real royal kerises from Bugis and Malay courts, and I believe even in the Javanese courts, which have blades that are so-so. These could be the old royal regalia, or simply a keris with special meaning to the royal family. One such example is the incredible gold Bugis keris gracing the cover of Court Arts of Indonesia. The gem-encrusted gold toli-toli with the dazzling gemmed rosette disc (sorry, forgot the term for that), and the repoussed gold sheets are of the highest quality, but the blade is just a good, old tough 7-waved Bugis blade.

Heheh, this is almost going into the 'pedigree' of a high-culture keris. There are ordinary kerises who follow the fortunes of the owner and get real beautiful dresses (i.e. the noveau rich), and there are kerises who were 'born high' and dressed high from day 1 (i.e. the snooty old money rich).

nechesh · 24th December 2005, 11:30 PM

Sorry Kai Wee, i didn't mean to throw that out as a cut-off price, just trying to throw out a number which was high enough to imply that one might pay, say $10,000 for a keris and still not get a "high culture" piece, just a VERY nice (hopefully

) keris. Again, these are arbitrary figures. Personally, i would just love to be that "lucky guy" who buys such a keris for only $1 (Santa, are you listening

), but i don't really think this happens all to often. Still.....

Certainly it is true that there are some royal blades in high-end dress that could be considered mediocre. But these are not the keris that are generally presented to us collectors. What i was referring to were keris we see on the open market and especially on ebay and yes, we might consider these guys "unscrupulous dealers". It is especially common to see this done with Balinese keris as the Balinese still make very fine dress of gold, silver and gemstones which can dazzle the eye of the unsuspecting collector.
Where did you see the blade on the Sumatran keris on the cover of Court Arts? I don't recall seeing a photo of it in the book. The dress is indeed exquisite.

BluErf · 24th December 2005, 11:38 PM

Yes, the photos were not published. sorry, can't share them because they're not mine to do so... But yes, just imagine a good old tough Bugis luk 7 blade with pamor kulit semangka, ujung gunong, wengkon, and a fair bit of akhodiat; the kembang kacang worn off a bit at the end; the luks are shallow but beautiful. There are no sogokans, lis-lisan, not much greneng.

BluErf · 24th December 2005, 11:42 PM

Ok, just to put an image to the description -- this is from my collection.

The Court Arts of Indonesia Bugis blade is of the same form, but nicer all round, and in better condition.

24th December 2005, 11:42 PM	#7
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Ok, just to put an image to the description -- this is from my collection. The Court Arts of Indonesia Bugis blade is of the same form, but nicer all round, and in better condition. Attached Images

24th December 2005, 08:40 PM	#3
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	I'm afraid it's even worse than you think Jose. I didn't see the keris Rick brought to the last seminar, so i could be wrong, but if he was asking less than $50,000.00 it probably didn't qualify or he didn't truly know what he had and was asking too little. This don't mean that it wasn't a very nice keris. Don't let the gold fool you, anyone can add that on to a well made blade and make it look like something even more than it is. We tend to see a lot more dress that could clothe a high end keris than the keris themselves, probably because high end dress is still being made. Most often the keris we see in such fancy dress are decent to poor, with the dress meant to sell the package. As has been implied, these "high culture" keris are raely, if ever, seen by mere mortal eyes.

24th December 2005, 10:56 PM	#4
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	I don't think there is a "cutoff price" like US$50k that differentiates a high culture keris from a normal keris. It depends on what the owner wants for the keris, which, for some lucky guy, could be US$1 because the aging owner thinks he is the best person to look after the keris for the next few decades. I also think that a high-end keris is not necessarily a high-culture keris, because high-culture kerises implies extremely high levels of artistry which usually means it is expensive, while a high-end keris can be made from very expensive materials, but of mediocre artistry. And as for decent to poor kerises in high-end dress, apart from those done up by unscrupulous dealers, there are instances of real royal kerises from Bugis and Malay courts, and I believe even in the Javanese courts, which have blades that are so-so. These could be the old royal regalia, or simply a keris with special meaning to the royal family. One such example is the incredible gold Bugis keris gracing the cover of Court Arts of Indonesia. The gem-encrusted gold toli-toli with the dazzling gemmed rosette disc (sorry, forgot the term for that), and the repoussed gold sheets are of the highest quality, but the blade is just a good, old tough 7-waved Bugis blade. Heheh, this is almost going into the 'pedigree' of a high-culture keris. There are ordinary kerises who follow the fortunes of the owner and get real beautiful dresses (i.e. the noveau rich), and there are kerises who were 'born high' and dressed high from day 1 (i.e. the snooty old money rich).

24th December 2005, 11:30 PM	#5
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Sorry Kai Wee, i didn't mean to throw that out as a cut-off price, just trying to throw out a number which was high enough to imply that one might pay, say $10,000 for a keris and still not get a "high culture" piece, just a VERY nice (hopefully ) keris. Again, these are arbitrary figures. Personally, i would just love to be that "lucky guy" who buys such a keris for only $1 (Santa, are you listening ), but i don't really think this happens all to often. Still..... Certainly it is true that there are some royal blades in high-end dress that could be considered mediocre. But these are not the keris that are generally presented to us collectors. What i was referring to were keris we see on the open market and especially on ebay and yes, we might consider these guys "unscrupulous dealers". It is especially common to see this done with Balinese keris as the Balinese still make very fine dress of gold, silver and gemstones which can dazzle the eye of the unsuspecting collector. Where did you see the blade on the Sumatran keris on the cover of Court Arts? I don't recall seeing a photo of it in the book. The dress is indeed exquisite.

24th December 2005, 11:38 PM	#6
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Yes, the photos were not published. sorry, can't share them because they're not mine to do so... But yes, just imagine a good old tough Bugis luk 7 blade with pamor kulit semangka, ujung gunong, wengkon, and a fair bit of akhodiat; the kembang kacang worn off a bit at the end; the luks are shallow but beautiful. There are no sogokans, lis-lisan, not much greneng.