how do we classify a weapon tourist,origin,time period ?

Ian · 25th July 2015, 08:03 PM

Ward:

Great topic. Thanks for starting this off. I think it has more than Ethnographic interest so I'm going to send it over to the Miscellania Forum where our colleagues from the European and Keris Warang Kopi forums are likely to pick it up as well.

Ian.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ward

I classify tourist pieces as items that are specifically made for display, not functional, and generally poor quality, or straight fakes.

Origin of a piece is often a problem because so many pieces have parts made in various locations. So I use the form of the weapon as a general rule. Even using terms like ottoman empire or Chinese are pretty vague. Both of the cultures expanded and contracted there holdings over time. They also sent artist, craftsman, and weapons out to other areas.

Age of a item is another issue. I have a family shotgun that was used in the American revolution, then years later changed over to percussion by a local black smith and used in the war of northern aggression, then the stock was falling apart so my grandfather carved a new one out of apple wood and used it during the depression. So how do I date it ? Except for the barrel that has been modified over the years and a few pieces of the furniture I would be hard pressed to call this piece 18th century or the original English origin.

What are your thoughts on these subjects?

Ian · 25th July 2015, 08:29 PM

Ward:

The example of your family shotgun sounds very familiar. My family had an old Winchester Coach Gun that my great grandfather carried when he was delivering mail in rural Victoria (Australia) during the late 19th C. According to my family's legend about him, one day he came across the notorious Kelly Gang's camp while delivering mail on horseback. He didn't try to use the gun that day but just rode on by with a friendly wave. That gun went through many alterations over the years--new stock, replaced hammer and trigger assembly--and was lost when my cousin fell in the Murray River with it while hunting ducks in 2005.

I would say your gun is as "American" as they come--a great story and a great piece of folk history. It is an emblem

As far as terms such as "Ottoman Empire," "Chinese," "Islamic" or the ever popular "Indo-Persian," they do indeed lack specificity and are virtually meaningless when communicating among collectors and other parties serious about these weapons.

Ian

Jim McDougall · 25th July 2015, 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

Ward:

The example of your family shotgun sounds very familiar. My family had an old Winchester Coach Gun that my great grandfather carried when he was delivering mail in rural Victoria (Australia) during the late 19th C. According to my family's legend about him, one day he came across the notorious Kelly Gang's camp while delivering mail on horseback. He didn't try to use the gun that day but just rode on by with a friendly wave. That gun went through many alterations over the years--new stock, replaced hammer and trigger assembly--and was lost when my cousin fell in the Murray River with it while hunting ducks in 2005.

I would say your gun is as "American" as they come--a great story and a great piece of folk history. It is an emblem

As far as terms such as "Ottoman Empire," "Chinese," "Islamic" or the ever popular "Indo-Persian," they do indeed lack specificity and are virtually meaningless when communicating among collectors and other parties serious about these weapons.

Ian

Ian,
We crossed posts, and I just read this! Fantastic!!!
The story of Ward's shotgun and what incredible family history with yours and his!!! I truly hope others will add such fascinating entries.
As I mentioned, it would be terribly remiss to deny these weapons their colorful and exciting history in their descriptions for the sake of brevity.

ward · 25th July 2015, 09:45 PM

Yes family history is interesting. My daughter usually shutters when she hears a lot of it. My family was represented in the confederacy in Georgia, Tennessee, and Texas. One of the favorite stories I liked is one part of the family owned a sugar plantation on the Isle of good hope in Savannah, Georgia. The Yankees took over the house and demanded to be feed. They cooked the meal and added red ants to the sugar. The soldiers thinking they were poisoned burned the house down. This story was actually written in a journal that my aunt inherited.

A. G. Maisey · 25th July 2015, 10:44 PM

Just a brief comment, and my opinion only, which means that I understand that it could be subject to much disagreement.

In respect of any item, and this does not mean only weaponry:-

1) identify culture of origin

2) identify society and sub-society of origin

3) identify origin in time

4) gain an understanding of the place of the item within the culture, society, sub-society at the time of origin of the specific item, and of its type.

ward · 25th July 2015, 11:09 PM

Those statements are a little harder to do than stated. Let us take Africa. You have a continent that was divided up into countries that had little to do with the local cultures or tribes of the area. So is it a better idea to say that a item is berber, turaq,arab, etc.etc.

Should we start identifying pieces as 50% 17th century,25% 19th century, the rest 20th century.

Should we start using words like ottoman influenced, Russian influenced.

Maybe we should also look at how late earlier technology was still being used.

Identifying a piece is more a educated guess than anything. How much education is the question.

A. G. Maisey · 26th July 2015, 08:28 AM

Yes Ward, serious study in any field is never easy. I agree completely. We can just collect for the fun of it, and accumulate a nice lot vaguely identified objects --- nothing wrong with this, it can be good fun --- or we can dedicate a significant part of our life to the serious investigation of an object or objects.

They say that an expert is somebody who knows more and more about less and less, so you take your pick:- try to become an expert, or have fun and be an accumulator.

One is no better than the other, it is simply an expression of personality and level of interest as to what one chooses to become.

25th July 2015, 08:29 PM	#2
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,363	Ward: The example of your family shotgun sounds very familiar. My family had an old Winchester Coach Gun that my great grandfather carried when he was delivering mail in rural Victoria (Australia) during the late 19th C. According to my family's legend about him, one day he came across the notorious Kelly Gang's camp while delivering mail on horseback. He didn't try to use the gun that day but just rode on by with a friendly wave. That gun went through many alterations over the years--new stock, replaced hammer and trigger assembly--and was lost when my cousin fell in the Murray River with it while hunting ducks in 2005. I would say your gun is as "American" as they come--a great story and a great piece of folk history. It is an emblem As far as terms such as "Ottoman Empire," "Chinese," "Islamic" or the ever popular "Indo-Persian," they do indeed lack specificity and are virtually meaningless when communicating among collectors and other parties serious about these weapons. Ian

25th July 2015, 09:45 PM	#4
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	Yes family history is interesting. My daughter usually shutters when she hears a lot of it. My family was represented in the confederacy in Georgia, Tennessee, and Texas. One of the favorite stories I liked is one part of the family owned a sugar plantation on the Isle of good hope in Savannah, Georgia. The Yankees took over the house and demanded to be feed. They cooked the meal and added red ants to the sugar. The soldiers thinking they were poisoned burned the house down. This story was actually written in a journal that my aunt inherited.

25th July 2015, 10:44 PM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Just a brief comment, and my opinion only, which means that I understand that it could be subject to much disagreement. In respect of any item, and this does not mean only weaponry:- 1) identify culture of origin 2) identify society and sub-society of origin 3) identify origin in time 4) gain an understanding of the place of the item within the culture, society, sub-society at the time of origin of the specific item, and of its type.

25th July 2015, 11:09 PM	#6
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	Those statements are a little harder to do than stated. Let us take Africa. You have a continent that was divided up into countries that had little to do with the local cultures or tribes of the area. So is it a better idea to say that a item is berber, turaq,arab, etc.etc. Should we start identifying pieces as 50% 17th century,25% 19th century, the rest 20th century. Should we start using words like ottoman influenced, Russian influenced. Maybe we should also look at how late earlier technology was still being used. Identifying a piece is more a educated guess than anything. How much education is the question.

26th July 2015, 08:28 AM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Yes Ward, serious study in any field is never easy. I agree completely. We can just collect for the fun of it, and accumulate a nice lot vaguely identified objects --- nothing wrong with this, it can be good fun --- or we can dedicate a significant part of our life to the serious investigation of an object or objects. They say that an expert is somebody who knows more and more about less and less, so you take your pick:- try to become an expert, or have fun and be an accumulator. One is no better than the other, it is simply an expression of personality and level of interest as to what one chooses to become.