Brass hilted dha/daab for ID

Ian · 14th July 2015, 08:51 PM

I have received a very confident identification of this sword in an email from an international sword dealer. The individual has asked not to be identified or quoted directly on this forum, so I will respect his wishes and summarize briefly what he has to say.

The sword is from the Lao kingdom of Lan Xang Hom Khao (Kingdom of a Thousand Elephants Under the White Parasol) which lasted from 1354–1707 C.E. This was the founding dynasty of what is today Laos.

The sword dates from at least the early 18th C. and is probably more than 300 years old.

The hilt is made of samrit bronze (or auspicious alloy) which is an alloy that includes copper and tin, plus small amounts of silver, gold and mercury, and the "secret ingredient" of burnt ashes of the bua bok creeper that was used to amalgamate the mixture. This samrit alloy does not turn dark green-brown with age (as you can see from the pictures here)--if cleaned now it would resemble gold (which was the whole idea in producing this alloy).

The style of hilt on the sword above and its samrit bronze construction predate the more familiar silver and bronze repoussed hilts of other Lan Chang daab (and swords in the Lan Chang style are still being made today). Consequently, this sword dates very closely to the time period of the dynasty and might be 17th C. or earlier--it is a very old sword according to this dealer who seems to know what he is talking about.

One final point. The hilt at some time has been remounted upside down. It should continue in a single graceful curve in harmony with the curve of the blade. The remounting seems to have occurred many years ago because there is no evidence of the hilt having been disturbed recently.

Take these comments for what you will. I don't like passing on information that cannot be verified readily and based on one person's opinion. On the other hand, I have no reason to question the accuracy of these comments.

If what he says is true, I really lucked out and found a sleeping beauty at an incredibly good price. What we all hope to find for our collections, right!

Ian.

spiral · 14th July 2015, 10:00 PM

I have no knowledge of this weapon but as an ex. foundryman , {many many moons ago.} as well as a collector of ethnographic weapons, I can say the hilt casting is fantastic quality & in my experience of other weapons that does often imply an early date.

spiral

Nathaniel · 18th July 2015, 03:14 AM

Lovely sword Ian. Congratulations. Thanks for sharing. I would go for more southern Laos...Vietnamese borders...you can see the sino vietnamese influence on the blade shape.

Unique handle design, oval cross section like a Chinese/ japanese sword...the samarit handle and wire overlay we have seen before but not in this pattern which imitates more of the flat braided handle wraps of japanese and chinese swords...very neat to see something in a variation not seen before! Awesome! Thanks for sharing!

Ian · 18th July 2015, 04:47 AM

Thank you Nathan.

I think we can also see the Chinese influence in the small disk guard, many of which were apparently removed by Lao and Thai owners who found them cumbersome (according to my international source).

Southern Laos would fit with the information that I have received.

Regards,

Ian.

ariel · 18th July 2015, 04:58 AM

Far be it from me to argue with the opinions of Gurus, but just as a comment:

Down-turned handles are seen on nomadic sabers dating back to the 6-12 centuries and belonging to Enisei Kyrgyz ( see book by Khudyakov). Such a configuration amplified the cutting abilities of the saber and at the same time allowed at least some degree of stabbing.

This was preserved over centuries and found its way into Georgian palashes, the famous saber of Charles the Great, some Chinese sabers, Nathan Starr's sabers of 1812-1813 and even the very last model of the British cavalry sword of the 1908 pattern.

Perhaps, the handle was never remounted? Just a possibility.

Ian · 18th July 2015, 05:08 AM

Point taken ariel. Perhaps it was made this way, although it would be very unusual.

Ian.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Far be it for me to argue with the opinions of Gurus, but just as a comment:

Down-turned handles are seen on nomadic sabers dating back to the 6-12 centuries and belonging to Enisei Kyrgyz ( see book by Khudyakov). Such a configuration amplified the cutting abilities of the saber and at the same time allowed at least some degree of stabbing.

This was preserved over centuries and found its way into Georgian palashes, the famous saber of Charles the Great, some Chinese sabers, Nathan Starr's sabers of 1812-1813 and even the very last model of the British cavalry sword of the 1908 pattern.

Perhaps, the handle was never remounted? Just a possibility.

Tim Simmons · 18th July 2015, 08:49 AM

This is quite interesting.

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...bronze&f=false

Nice looking sword and story. The metal seems to be a standard bronze except for magic dust ashes.. I do not know what the addition of mercury would do as it would vaporize.

Gavin Nugent · 21st July 2015, 03:23 AM

Ian,

That's a real neat sword, congrats on finding a early untouched example.

I can't add much else that hasn't already been mentioned but I feel the sword can just as easily be far more to the Northern Laos when considering the age.

Here is an interesting link to bronze manufacture and history...specifically Rain Drums but totally relevant to the sword hilt...

http://www.lasieexotique.com/mag_fro...frogdrums.html

Gavin

PS, I forgot to add, re Ariel's note about the sword hilt orientation; Personally I see the current orientation as being correct in this instance for the specific sword type and age.

Gavin Nugent · 21st July 2015, 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

This is quite interesting.

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...bronze&f=false

Nice looking sword and story. The metal seems to be a standard bronze except for magic dust ashes.. I do not know what the addition of mercury would do as it would vaporize.

An interesting point Tim. I have read the text in the link and wondered similar things. Melting points for the metals are vastly higher than that of Mercury but would it actually vaporize? Perhaps metallurgists here can offer some insight to the subject about how metals meld?

Gavin

18th July 2015, 04:58 AM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Far be it from me to argue with the opinions of Gurus, but just as a comment: Down-turned handles are seen on nomadic sabers dating back to the 6-12 centuries and belonging to Enisei Kyrgyz ( see book by Khudyakov). Such a configuration amplified the cutting abilities of the saber and at the same time allowed at least some degree of stabbing. This was preserved over centuries and found its way into Georgian palashes, the famous saber of Charles the Great, some Chinese sabers, Nathan Starr's sabers of 1812-1813 and even the very last model of the British cavalry sword of the 1908 pattern. Perhaps, the handle was never remounted? Just a possibility. Last edited by ariel; 18th July 2015 at 12:36 PM.

18th July 2015, 08:49 AM	#7
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,844	This is quite interesting. https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...bronze&f=false Nice looking sword and story. The metal seems to be a standard bronze except for magic dust ashes.. I do not know what the addition of mercury would do as it would vaporize. Last edited by Tim Simmons; 18th July 2015 at 09:07 AM.

21st July 2015, 03:23 AM	#8
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Ian, That's a real neat sword, congrats on finding a early untouched example. I can't add much else that hasn't already been mentioned but I feel the sword can just as easily be far more to the Northern Laos when considering the age. Here is an interesting link to bronze manufacture and history...specifically Rain Drums but totally relevant to the sword hilt... http://www.lasieexotique.com/mag_fro...frogdrums.html Gavin PS, I forgot to add, re Ariel's note about the sword hilt orientation; Personally I see the current orientation as being correct in this instance for the specific sword type and age. Last edited by SwordsAntiqueWeapons; 21st July 2015 at 01:07 PM.

14th July 2015, 08:51 PM	#1
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,363	I have received a very confident identification of this sword in an email from an international sword dealer. The individual has asked not to be identified or quoted directly on this forum, so I will respect his wishes and summarize briefly what he has to say. The sword is from the Lao kingdom of Lan Xang Hom Khao (Kingdom of a Thousand Elephants Under the White Parasol) which lasted from 1354–1707 C.E. This was the founding dynasty of what is today Laos. The sword dates from at least the early 18th C. and is probably more than 300 years old. The hilt is made of samrit bronze (or auspicious alloy) which is an alloy that includes copper and tin, plus small amounts of silver, gold and mercury, and the "secret ingredient" of burnt ashes of the bua bok creeper that was used to amalgamate the mixture. This samrit alloy does not turn dark green-brown with age (as you can see from the pictures here)--if cleaned now it would resemble gold (which was the whole idea in producing this alloy). The style of hilt on the sword above and its samrit bronze construction predate the more familiar silver and bronze repoussed hilts of other Lan Chang daab (and swords in the Lan Chang style are still being made today). Consequently, this sword dates very closely to the time period of the dynasty and might be 17th C. or earlier--it is a very old sword according to this dealer who seems to know what he is talking about. One final point. The hilt at some time has been remounted upside down. It should continue in a single graceful curve in harmony with the curve of the blade. The remounting seems to have occurred many years ago because there is no evidence of the hilt having been disturbed recently. Take these comments for what you will. I don't like passing on information that cannot be verified readily and based on one person's opinion. On the other hand, I have no reason to question the accuracy of these comments. If what he says is true, I really lucked out and found a sleeping beauty at an incredibly good price. What we all hope to find for our collections, right! Ian.

14th July 2015, 10:00 PM	#2
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	I have no knowledge of this weapon but as an ex. foundryman , {many many moons ago.} as well as a collector of ethnographic weapons, I can say the hilt casting is fantastic quality & in my experience of other weapons that does often imply an early date. spiral

18th July 2015, 03:14 AM	#3
Nathaniel Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 865	Lovely sword Ian. Congratulations. Thanks for sharing. I would go for more southern Laos...Vietnamese borders...you can see the sino vietnamese influence on the blade shape. Unique handle design, oval cross section like a Chinese/ japanese sword...the samarit handle and wire overlay we have seen before but not in this pattern which imitates more of the flat braided handle wraps of japanese and chinese swords...very neat to see something in a variation not seen before! Awesome! Thanks for sharing!

18th July 2015, 04:47 AM	#4
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,363	Thank you Nathan. I think we can also see the Chinese influence in the small disk guard, many of which were apparently removed by Lao and Thai owners who found them cumbersome (according to my international source). Southern Laos would fit with the information that I have received. Regards, Ian.