Southern India sword?

kronckew · 5th July 2015, 09:20 AM

? - i would expect if anything, the patina and corrosion to be worse under the brass & roughly the same in the exposed holes, exposed to the same corrosive conditions. brass in contact with steel would set up a galvanic corrosion cell if not kept oiled. steel is higher in the galvanic series than brass and thus will corrode preferentially.

anyway, if trade blades were common at the end of the 18th c. it's possible an old patinated blade still in working condition may have been rehilted in the early 19th. as it appears to be shorter than the normal european blade, it may have broken off & the owner had it rehilted as a full exposed tang hanger/cutlass, thus the fullers extending under the filigreed brass. waste not want not

i suspect some bright spark thinking he'd increase the bling value has cleaned it & polished the brass recently. will know more when my supplier returns from france early this week 7 posts it to me so i can supply better photos.

kronckew · 16th July 2015, 09:13 AM

my supplier returned from france monday (strikes in france & illegals storming the tunnel & ferries have been a nightmare last week or so) & posted the item. finally arrived a few minutes ago today.

blade is 61 cm - 24 in.
LOA is 73 cm. - 29 in.
weight is 476 gm. - 1.05 lb.

the flexible blade is fairly thin, 5mm at the grip, distal tapered to the point. sharp false edge about 6 in. the brass filigreed part is integral to the rest of the guard and tight to the blade and down into the fullers, the corrosion appears to follow the outline of the brass but not under it.

it is a full exposed tang with brass grip liners, separate from the brass of the guard and horn grip slabs pinned to it via brass rivets. some of the brass is worn bright tho tarnished, some has a deep dark patina. inside the bow it is almost black, as are sections of the brass grip scale liners.

there is a small 1mm gap between the front of the scales & the guard that looks like a missing shim or spacer.

i suspect that this hanger was made from a much longer broken blade.

the shiney brass polished look i noted in the earlier photos must have been an artifact added by the suppliers phone camera logic.

will take a few pics for posting here later after i walk the dog and have my breakfast.

kronckew · 16th July 2015, 04:14 PM

today's photos - didn't turn out as well as i'd hoped. light wasn't right. bit overcast. may try again when we have a sunny day.

spiral · 16th July 2015, 04:42 PM

mmmm I wouldn't rule out Afghanistan either... they used short swords, the guard could be right for that area as could the file work grip on the horn hilt...

Jens Nordlunde · 20th July 2015, 09:42 PM

I go with Spiral.
As I too think it could be an Afghan sable.
Jens

kronckew · 20th July 2015, 10:00 PM

it does look like a variant on these afghan short swords i googled up a minute ago: no upper guard projection on mine tho, no sign there ever was one that broke off either. the end is also not touching or fastened toi the pommel like the afghan ones.

Jim McDougall · 20th July 2015, 11:14 PM

Very astute observation Jens! It does seem possible that the Afghan connection might come in here. I think I learned a great deal when we talked on the Deccan, and the complex connections between those regions and Afghanistan. With that in mind, such diffusion of 'southern' style surely might extend into areas of the Northwest.

Kronckew, those curious military swords were what came to mind when I saw Afghanistan mentioned. These are actually a quite different 'breed' though, and last year Mahratt did a brilliant study on these. These are apparently a regulation type sword produced at the Machin Khana in Kabul, a British subsidized factory dealing primarily in firearms.

With Afghanistan in mind, I would point out that in the Northwest Frontier regions there were often examples of tulwar without the pommel disc (such examples can be seen in Tirri). While it is often presumed these 'open' hilt forms were altered by removal of the pommel disc, I have handled an example (provenance from Khyber regions in 1930s) in which it seems there never was a disc on the otherwise Indo-Persian style hilt.

5th July 2015, 09:20 AM	#1
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,215	? - i would expect if anything, the patina and corrosion to be worse under the brass & roughly the same in the exposed holes, exposed to the same corrosive conditions. brass in contact with steel would set up a galvanic corrosion cell if not kept oiled. steel is higher in the galvanic series than brass and thus will corrode preferentially. anyway, if trade blades were common at the end of the 18th c. it's possible an old patinated blade still in working condition may have been rehilted in the early 19th. as it appears to be shorter than the normal european blade, it may have broken off & the owner had it rehilted as a full exposed tang hanger/cutlass, thus the fullers extending under the filigreed brass. waste not want not i suspect some bright spark thinking he'd increase the bling value has cleaned it & polished the brass recently. will know more when my supplier returns from france early this week 7 posts it to me so i can supply better photos. Last edited by kronckew; 5th July 2015 at 09:31 AM.

16th July 2015, 09:13 AM	#2
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,215	my supplier returned from france monday (strikes in france & illegals storming the tunnel & ferries have been a nightmare last week or so) & posted the item. finally arrived a few minutes ago today. blade is 61 cm - 24 in. LOA is 73 cm. - 29 in. weight is 476 gm. - 1.05 lb. the flexible blade is fairly thin, 5mm at the grip, distal tapered to the point. sharp false edge about 6 in. the brass filigreed part is integral to the rest of the guard and tight to the blade and down into the fullers, the corrosion appears to follow the outline of the brass but not under it. it is a full exposed tang with brass grip liners, separate from the brass of the guard and horn grip slabs pinned to it via brass rivets. some of the brass is worn bright tho tarnished, some has a deep dark patina. inside the bow it is almost black, as are sections of the brass grip scale liners. there is a small 1mm gap between the front of the scales & the guard that looks like a missing shim or spacer. i suspect that this hanger was made from a much longer broken blade. the shiney brass polished look i noted in the earlier photos must have been an artifact added by the suppliers phone camera logic. will take a few pics for posting here later after i walk the dog and have my breakfast. Last edited by kronckew; 16th July 2015 at 09:26 AM.

16th July 2015, 04:14 PM	#3
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,215	today's photos - didn't turn out as well as i'd hoped. light wasn't right. bit overcast. may try again when we have a sunny day. Attached Images

20th July 2015, 10:00 PM	#6
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,215	it does look like a variant on these afghan short swords i googled up a minute ago: no upper guard projection on mine tho, no sign there ever was one that broke off either. the end is also not touching or fastened toi the pommel like the afghan ones. Attached Images Last edited by kronckew; 20th July 2015 at 10:19 PM.

16th July 2015, 04:42 PM	#4
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	mmmm I wouldn't rule out Afghanistan either... they used short swords, the guard could be right for that area as could the file work grip on the horn hilt...

20th July 2015, 09:42 PM	#5
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	I go with Spiral. As I too think it could be an Afghan sable. Jens

20th July 2015, 11:14 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,194	Very astute observation Jens! It does seem possible that the Afghan connection might come in here. I think I learned a great deal when we talked on the Deccan, and the complex connections between those regions and Afghanistan. With that in mind, such diffusion of 'southern' style surely might extend into areas of the Northwest. Kronckew, those curious military swords were what came to mind when I saw Afghanistan mentioned. These are actually a quite different 'breed' though, and last year Mahratt did a brilliant study on these. These are apparently a regulation type sword produced at the Machin Khana in Kabul, a British subsidized factory dealing primarily in firearms. With Afghanistan in mind, I would point out that in the Northwest Frontier regions there were often examples of tulwar without the pommel disc (such examples can be seen in Tirri). While it is often presumed these 'open' hilt forms were altered by removal of the pommel disc, I have handled an example (provenance from Khyber regions in 1930s) in which it seems there never was a disc on the otherwise Indo-Persian style hilt.