Interesting Saif with Provenance for Sharing

Kubur · 25th June 2015, 08:49 PM

It's not a nice photo, but better than nothing. If it's really an early French sword, then I know exactly how the blade went to SA.
Best,
Kubur

A.alnakkas · 25th June 2015, 10:38 PM

thats a nice sabre! I actually had a saif with such a french blade.. had some Arabic script on the spine with Sun and Moon motifs on the blade... It was European likely used in an ottoman sword, then it was dressed in Arabian style. Was very different from this one though, wider and more flexible and also different fullering.

Jim McDougall · 25th June 2015, 11:11 PM

To me the hollow ground sabre blade in this example (which looks very much like the examples seen in Elgood's 'Arabian Arms & Armour) seems very 'Solingen'. It does seem like an early 19th century hussars blade, and these seem to have been very prevalent in trade circumstances throughout Red Sea and North African trade in Egypt. The Arabian presence in Aden of course along with the Condominium in Anglo-Egyptian Sudan also may have accounted for German (as well as French) blades in the opening years of 20th c.

The French sabre shown illustrates the much wider fullering seen on these Klingenthal type blades.

Kubur, interesting comment on the possible entry of French blade into Arabia, and while my allusion to the French presence in North Africa mentions the condominium, obviously the profound presence in Saharan regions throughout the 19th c. is another possibility. I'd like to know more on that, can you elaborate?

Either way, I feel pretty certain the blade here is European, and probably earlier 19th c. Very nice sa'if.
But I am curious......Lofty, you say these were not to be 'gifted'. I have always been under the impression that sa'if were indeed a highly honored gift diplomatically, and especially in these early years of our alliance with Saudi Arabia.
Best regards,
Jim

A.alnakkas · 25th June 2015, 11:16 PM

Hey Jim,

These are made for use by the Saudi Government (and other states, now existing or gone.) some of the uses for this swords is well, as a weapon. The rest being for the ardha, executions and gifting.

I mentioned specifically that its not made FOR gifting only to show that these swords had a context in which it was used.

RSWORD · 26th June 2015, 12:57 AM

The sword looks much better than the auction pictures. Looked like it had bad rusting or was even in a fire. Did you restore or clean up this sword? If so, it turned out much better than expected given what was shown at auction.

A.alnakkas · 26th June 2015, 01:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RSWORD

The sword looks much better than the auction pictures. Looked like it had bad rusting or was even in a fire. Did you restore or clean up this sword? If so, it turned out much better than expected given what was shown at auction.

Hey Rick,

Yes, and I got it relatively cheap for what it is. The mounts were heavily smoked... so likely it was displayed over a fire place.

Jim McDougall · 26th June 2015, 03:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

Hey Jim,

These are made for use by the Saudi Government (and other states, now existing or gone.) some of the uses for this swords is well, as a weapon. The rest being for the ardha, executions and gifting.

I mentioned specifically that its not made FOR gifting only to show that these swords had a context in which it was used.

Thanks for clarification Lofty. I guess I misinterpreted what you meant by these were not made FOR gifting......but it was OK to gift them. That makes sense that they were for actual use as accoutrement or in other required purposes
I also misunderstood the notes pertaining to the blade, I thought you were saying you had a feeling it was not European. I am curious about what other sources of this form blade might be.
Thanks,
Jim

Kubur · 26th June 2015, 07:27 AM

Hi Jim,
I think like you that this blade is early 19th c. or very late 18th c.
If the blade is not a mid or late 19th c. then I do not think that the blade entered the Red Sea by the South. And I do not think that's a colonial blade or a trade blade. Lotfy, I would like to think that your blade cames from Quseir. During the French expedition, the Egyptian port of Quseir was occupied by the Napoleonic army. Quseir was one of the major ottoman harbour on the Red Sea, directly in contact with Jeddah, for trade and pilgrimage. I guess some members will say that I'm crazy or a dreamer, but it's not impossible for me...

Jim McDougall · 26th June 2015, 04:41 PM

Thank you Kubur for your response and for the most interesting explanation regarding the French possibilities. Very well explained, and while I am familiar with the Napoleonic expeditions I had known the detail about this port. Very well reasoned and certainly a plausible source as you note for French blades.
I still sense this as a Solingen blade and most probably of early 19th c. and at this point do not think it is French. As you know French blades of these times were usually inscribed on the blade spine, which would not have been removed by constant polishing in Arabian practice.

It is an interesting conundrum and I look forward to other thoughts and observations as always.

Best regards,
Jim

25th June 2015, 08:49 PM	#1
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	It's not a nice photo, but better than nothing. If it's really an early French sword, then I know exactly how the blade went to SA. Best, Kubur Attached Images

25th June 2015, 10:38 PM	#2
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,340	thats a nice sabre! I actually had a saif with such a french blade.. had some Arabic script on the spine with Sun and Moon motifs on the blade... It was European likely used in an ottoman sword, then it was dressed in Arabian style. Was very different from this one though, wider and more flexible and also different fullering.

25th June 2015, 11:11 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,299	To me the hollow ground sabre blade in this example (which looks very much like the examples seen in Elgood's 'Arabian Arms & Armour) seems very 'Solingen'. It does seem like an early 19th century hussars blade, and these seem to have been very prevalent in trade circumstances throughout Red Sea and North African trade in Egypt. The Arabian presence in Aden of course along with the Condominium in Anglo-Egyptian Sudan also may have accounted for German (as well as French) blades in the opening years of 20th c. The French sabre shown illustrates the much wider fullering seen on these Klingenthal type blades. Kubur, interesting comment on the possible entry of French blade into Arabia, and while my allusion to the French presence in North Africa mentions the condominium, obviously the profound presence in Saharan regions throughout the 19th c. is another possibility. I'd like to know more on that, can you elaborate? Either way, I feel pretty certain the blade here is European, and probably earlier 19th c. Very nice sa'if. But I am curious......Lofty, you say these were not to be 'gifted'. I have always been under the impression that sa'if were indeed a highly honored gift diplomatically, and especially in these early years of our alliance with Saudi Arabia. Best regards, Jim

25th June 2015, 11:16 PM	#4
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,340	Hey Jim, These are made for use by the Saudi Government (and other states, now existing or gone.) some of the uses for this swords is well, as a weapon. The rest being for the ardha, executions and gifting. I mentioned specifically that its not made FOR gifting only to show that these swords had a context in which it was used.

26th June 2015, 12:57 AM	#5
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,087	The sword looks much better than the auction pictures. Looked like it had bad rusting or was even in a fire. Did you restore or clean up this sword? If so, it turned out much better than expected given what was shown at auction.

26th June 2015, 07:27 AM	#8
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Hi Jim, I think like you that this blade is early 19th c. or very late 18th c. If the blade is not a mid or late 19th c. then I do not think that the blade entered the Red Sea by the South. And I do not think that's a colonial blade or a trade blade. Lotfy, I would like to think that your blade cames from Quseir. During the French expedition, the Egyptian port of Quseir was occupied by the Napoleonic army. Quseir was one of the major ottoman harbour on the Red Sea, directly in contact with Jeddah, for trade and pilgrimage. I guess some members will say that I'm crazy or a dreamer, but it's not impossible for me...

26th June 2015, 04:41 PM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,299	Thank you Kubur for your response and for the most interesting explanation regarding the French possibilities. Very well explained, and while I am familiar with the Napoleonic expeditions I had known the detail about this port. Very well reasoned and certainly a plausible source as you note for French blades. I still sense this as a Solingen blade and most probably of early 19th c. and at this point do not think it is French. As you know French blades of these times were usually inscribed on the blade spine, which would not have been removed by constant polishing in Arabian practice. It is an interesting conundrum and I look forward to other thoughts and observations as always. Best regards, Jim