Go on...show us your Choora!!

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by ariel

Well, after a long interruption, I want to show 2 more chooras.
The is a long friendly argument between myself and another member about the age of a choora as a pattern.
In his opinion choora appeared only in the 20 th century as a modification of Karud.

Here are two chooras bought originally at an auction in Scotland. Their scabbards are in a sorry shape, but both carry paper labels dated 1854 and 1840. The daggers and their scabbards fit each other perfectly: no doubt original.Since the daggers themselves are not dated, as usual for the Afghani stuff, I did the next best thing: contacted Dr. Cathleen Baker from the Department of Restoration and Preservation of the University of Michigan Library. She is a world-renown expert on all things printed: paper, ink, techniques, bindings etc, former President and member of the Board of Directors of professional societies in her field, and the author of books and articles on the history of printing materials and techniques.
She examined the chooras ( magnifying equipment, UV and infrared lights, some chemical analysis), and in her professional opinion the physical condition of the labels and their materials ( papers, inks) are compatible with the mid-19th century or earlier, and incompatible with 20th century.

Together with the dates, this seems to clinch the issue: chooras existed in the pattern known till today even in the middle of the 19th century.

Gentlemen, I give you 2 oldest dated chooras known to man and beast :-)

And of the beasts: please look at the pics of the handle of the bigger choora: rhino?

Ariel, I am using this point as a starting point for my thoughts and I'll follow through the rest of the posts as time permits and respond.

The Choora as a form, to me is clearly a 19th century creation, that's the simple part as it appears in 19th century publications, namely Lord Egerton's work.

At face value, it is hard to argue the science behind the info on the sheaths but I strongly suspect the upper one to be a later knife in that sheath.
I'd support this statement with the known WII and pre WWII period Indian knives of various forms using the same construction and material vs known old stuff.

As far as the material of the lower older one, I see goat horn under magnification.

The lower one with inserted brass pins, certainly an older Choora.

Gavin

[ariel]

Goat horn????

Never seen one, never thought of it.
Thanks

[Andrew]

I suggest all participants in this thread heed the sage advice offered by Fernando, David and Ian.

I have been busy with other pressing personal matters, but I find the on-topic posts here interesting and stimulating. Accordingly, I will likely check in frequently on the discussion. Those of you who are familiar with my approach to moderation know what to expect. Those of you who are new, well, let's just say I employ a rather...blunt form of diplomacy.

Andrew
Vikingsword Staff

[Jens Nordlunde]

Nice to see you here Andrew:-)
Always nice to see you - but when threads seem to run a bit out of hands, it is nice that there is an anchor man.
Jens

[Andrew]

Hello, my friend! Hope all is well with you and yours, Jens.

[ariel]

Gavin,
Thanks for your input. I am glad we are on the same page re. age of a Choora as a pattern.

I can easily see your point re. smaller choora: it is much cruder and the handle is very primitive.
However, do we really know that such village-level examples were not manufactured in the 19th century? As I mentioned earlier, there must have been local production of simple, inexpensive and replaceable knives made locally, without resorting to fancy blades and expensive materials. We see it with each and every antique oriental weapon.

Egerton, in his comment to #750 mentions Ch'hura, a " strong, heavy knife" made in Khorassan, Kandahar and Jellalabad. Did he have in mind a Choora as we refer to it in this discussion or a Khyber Knife? We will never know, because the main item he described ( #750) is an unquestionable Khyber. However, he mentions Ch'hura in the same breath, as a separate example. Most importantly from my perspective is the mention of both local and imported examples. There mush have been gradations of quality. Pure IMHO :-)

My Pakistani fellow contacted his father-in-law who is a language professor in a small university in Pakhtunkhwa and his friend, a colonel in Pakistani military, who has connections in the Military Museum in Rawalpindi. Regretfully, contacts with Afghani specialists are not possible now.....

[ariel]

Another interesting twist:

Harvey Withers, a well-known and respected dealer fom the UK, posted this Choora on E-bay ( it is sold).
The interesting thing is the presense of a lead museum tag with Queen Victoria's mark and , on the reverse, the location of this Choora in the muzeum ( hall and position). This info is per Mr. Withers' information.
Victoria reigned in the 19th century:-)