Catalogue of my collection

[Mans]

Originally Posted by BluErf

..... that the realistic form is called 'Putro Satu' while the abstract form is called 'Putri Satu'. Putro means son while Putri means daughter. This could be a recent terminology like the 'wadon' term that has been given to the famous hilt that was commonly referred to as a form of Durga in another earlier (and very heatedly debated) thread.....

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Putro Satu and Putri Satu;
'Putro' mean Son or guy.
'Putri' mean Lady, Girl or Daughter.
'Satu' mean One or First.
So, in Javanese and Maduranese term, Putro Satu mean Prince and Putri Satu mean Princess.

Oh ya, the 1st keris in my opinion nearer as an Old Balinese keris than Javanese. Its because bent of the Greneng and Ron Dho Nunut are dirrected to up.
The Old Balinese keris before Mataram Period resemble with Javanese (Pajajaran-Kediri-Singosari-Blambangan) keris although some ricikans still shown as the Balinese keris, specificaly on the form of Kembang Kacang, Lambe Gajah, Greneng, Ron Dho Nunut and Gonjo.

[nechesh]

I think Mans is probably right. In fact, i think both these Siva hilted keris are probably Balinese.

[nechesh]

Here is another Pasisir example posted on Adni site. Adni identifies it as Ganesha and if you look closely you can make out what could be an the elephant's trunk. Certainly all the variations on these vegetal motif hilts are not intended to be raksasa.
http://www.geocities.com/keris4u/han...ganesh_112.htm
This is why i wonder if at least the first two examples of Jensen's that Kai Wee posted (not counting the Sivas) are indeed meant to be a different demon or deity. That first one still looks like hanuman to me.

[Mans]

Originally Posted by nechesh

........ That first one still looks like hanuman to me.

Hanuman is White Monkey Warrior. He has a leader of Monkey warriors.
Did you look the face of 1st hilt resemble with Monkey

I think nearer as a little Raksaksha
Perhaps the maker has an imagination by him self

[nechesh]

i think the first ABSTRACT hilt has a head that very much resembles a monkey's, not the ivory hilt. The first two ivory hilts are strictly representational and are very likely Siva as Jensen states. Are we talking about the same hilt Mans?

[Mans]

I mean the 3rd hilt from Shiva hilt on the top. This hilt has a little smile on it face. If Hanuman, it must be has snout which more protrude than this one

[BluErf]

Originally Posted by Mans

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The Old Balinese keris before Mataram Period resemble with Javanese (Pajajaran-Kediri-Singosari-Blambangan) keris although some ricikans still shown as the Balinese keris, specificaly on the form of Kembang Kacang, Lambe Gajah, Greneng, Ron Dho Nunut and Gonjo.

Hey, beautiful old Putri Satu hilt! I love the old stately look. Very nice and warm feeling.

I would have thought that old Balinese kerises descended from the early Javanese kerises, so it is only natural that they resemble each other. The kerises in the pictures above were collected in Pasisir Jawa, in the 1600s, and kept in Museums ever since. So it may be quite safe to say that these are indeed old Javanese kerises.

[nechesh]

Mans, why would the snout have to protrude more to be hanuman. It still looks like a monkey to me. We often see Ganesha, Siva and other deities and demons depicted in a variety of forms. I don't see how you can say this could not possibly be a hauman because it's snout isn't long enough.
Kai Wee, if the provenance is there for Javanese origin then you are undoubtable correct. It is interesting that in later Balinese blades we still see form and appearence that is closer to these earlier Jawa keris than what we see in later Javanese keris. For instance, the custom of polished blades that we normally associate with Bali used to be the normal practice in Jawa. Much the same happened when Yoruban music moved to Cuba in the diaspora. The Cuba music stayed truer to it's origins, perhaps in an attempt to maintain it's identity with Africa while the music in Africa continued to evolve and change. Beautiful blades regardless.

[Mans]

Originally Posted by nechesh

Mans, why would the snout have to protrude more to be hanuman. It still looks like a monkey to me. We often see Ganesha, Siva and other deities and demons depicted in a variety of forms. I don't see how you can say this could not possibly be a hauman because it's snout isn't long enough.

Indeed, very difficult to identified about the Abstract hilt. So many arguments and interpretations which came out from our mind...
I just thought that the Hanuman smiles not like this one
But, what ever it was, This hilt is very impressive, isn't it ?
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Kai, I agree that the Old Balinese keris resemble with Javanese. But I think the Balinese has the histories it self although any the Javanese touch So, the Balinese keris still has characteristic it self.

Here the link for example the old Javanese Keris (before Majapahit Era):
http://keris.fotopic.net/c684298.html
http://keris.fotopic.net/c450928.html
http://keris.fotopic.net/c618304.html

Majapahit Era (1300-1500s):
http://keris.fotopic.net/c645331.html
http://keris.fotopic.net/c669644.html
http://keris.fotopic.net/c785067.html

Mataram Era (1600-1700s) :
http://keris.fotopic.net/c451023.html
http://keris.fotopic.net/c710134.html
http://keris.fotopic.net/c461570.html

We can see that the Javanese keris still different with Balinese, specifically at some Ricikans on Sorsoran.
I think the 1st keris which you posted is an impressive old Balinese keris on Early Mataram period 1500-1600s). Very beautiful workmanship. Same with your Balinese kris which you collected

[nechesh]

Originally Posted by Mans

I just thought that the Hanuman smiles not like this one
But, what ever it was, This hilt is very impressive, isn't it ?

I think the one thing we can all agree on is that ALL the hilts displayed in this thread have been impressive.
Still, i'm not sure i even see the smile on this one the way that you do and i think we would need more angles and better pictures to ever begin to come to any real conclusions here.
Thanks for the links to all those beautiful keris. I would like to point out the difficulty in using these keris in comparision to keris which have been in collections for as long as the ones in Jensen's book have. The examples you display show the wear and erosion of centuries of acid baths and staining, while Jensen's examples are pristine as if recently made, having not received such treatment. Certainly many of the blades you show were once much more robust with the ricikan more intact and better developed. These blades would have once been polished in the way Balinese keris typically are, but that look went out of style in Jawa and the rough etch appearance came into mode. So comparisons are tough. Therefore, i think i'll sit on the fence awhile on this one. With one low quality photo of only a part of the blade we really don't have enough information to argue about. I suppose that even if this blade were collected in Northern Jawa it could still have had a Balinese origin. But i have seen Javanese blades of similar character. I wouldn't bet the farm either way.

[Mans]

Originally Posted by nechesh

............
The examples you display show the wear and erosion of centuries of acid baths and staining, while Jensen's examples are pristine as if recently made, having not received such treatment.
I suppose that even if this blade were collected in Northern Jawa it could still have had a Balinese origin. But i have seen Javanese blades of similar character. I wouldn't bet the farm either way.

Yes you right that to distinguishing of the Javanese keris is too difficult. So that why many people must doing hard to learn about its .... and often some of them has frauded, kept strong them firm although they has a wrong knowledge We can't say anything because the keris is also bring the convictions on each of them, aren't they ?

Usually, I used so many keris to learning its. It is a method which can make us esier to learn and distinguishing the Javanese keris. We'll know the keris which has a good workmanship (Garap), Good ironwork and pamor, also we can know about the Tangguh and Pakem (estimated made).. but still difficult, isn't it

About the Acid Bath (Warangan), it is an a part of the whole on the Keris Cultures. To give the warangan, we must do some phase from Mutih/Methak, nyelup 'till give it the keris oil. It is a very difficult activities and complicated too. We must know well about the characteristic of the iron and pamor material and when we should take away the keris from Warangan in order to get the optimal output. So that why just a few people can and wish to do it.

[nechesh]

Originally Posted by Mans

About the Acid Bath (Warangan), it is an a part of the whole on the Keris Cultures. To give the warangan, we must do some phase from Mutih/Methak, nyelup 'till give it the keris oil. It is a very difficult activities and complicated too. We must know well about the characteristic of the iron and pamor material and when we should take away the keris from Warangan in order to get the optimal output. So that why just a few people can and wish to do it.

Hi Mans. I'm not sure if you misunderstood me or if you just wanted to add the above information. I wasn't implying that the examples in Jensen's book would not have received warangan treatment, but since they have been in museum collections since the 1600s they did not while the Javanese blades you show from the same era were washed over centuries with much blade erosion. Hard to compare physical attributions between them comsidering. It is also my understanding that Javanese blades were once polished in the manner that we gererally see Balinese blades. This makes comparison even more difficult since these Jensen examples appear to have such a polished finish while your examples have the rough etched finish that has become the custon in Jawa as well as other islands.
Having spent the last few years working on my skills with warangan i can attest first hand to the difficulties of blade staining. I have had to stain some s few times before getting them "right" and still have a few i've done that need reworking. But when you get it right it is very satisfying.

[Mans]

Originally Posted by BluErf

Hey, beautiful old Putri Satu hilt! I love the old stately look. Very nice and warm feeling.

Hei, you has nice Putro Satu & Putri Satu too. Very charming too
I think we'll got a cool feeling if we hold it..
You have many impressive collections Kai Wei

[BluErf]

I really should be saving the money for my wedding, but this was too good to pass up...

http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...view_album.php

[nechesh]

Originally Posted by BluErf

I really should be saving the money for my wedding, but this was too good to pass up...

http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...view_album.php

Kai Wee, why on earth would you need a wife when you have all those beautiful keris.
That new one is a beauty...congrats!

[BluErf]

Originally Posted by nechesh

Kai Wee, why on earth would you need a wife when you have all those beautiful keris.

...so that I can raise one or two keris nuts to carry on the tradition? Its a lucky thing my girlfriend doesn't visit this forum. hahaha!

[Alam Shah]

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